Death Penalty and Abortion

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Now I recently got into a tissy with conservatives from a conservative blog . I charged them as hypocrites for supporting DP and protesting Abortion . Many of them know I am a proud Catholic and one of them attempted to use the Catechism against me . The Church to my knowledge does not force anyone to support DP Am I wrong ? Anyway , I pointed out to them that if I were not Catholic and held the same position they would not be able to attempt to use the catechism . i asked them what their answer would be then. Well Here I am asking the forum of fellow Catholics what they think about the Death Penalty .I take the position that one is a hypocrite if he or she supports the Death penalty and at the same time protests abortion .(I protest both forms of murder )
 
Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) Excerpt,
2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.
"If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
"Today, in fact, given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender ‘today … are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’
 
When we get to this kind of issue I just say to myself: what would be Jesus position on the matter? At the end we should follow His way not justify our needs and weakness.

I don’t believe for one second Jesus would support DP or abortion in whatever situation.
Even the most drammatic, brutal, devilish situation.
He had mercy to men torturing and crucifying Him, and mercy even to demons that He allowed to go into pigs bodies after having chased them out from a man.
 
While I accept the Catechism statement as an accurate statement on the Church’s teaching at this time, it seems to me that this teaching currently is focused on balancing two elements-mercy and the protection of the innocent from a criminal- while not giving a great deal of attention to other relevant topics that touch on this issue, like justice. I think there’s more development of the Church’s teaching to be done on this subject.

Because of this and because of the very difficult, complicated factors involved I’m ultimately undecided on the issue. And because I’m ultimately undecided I am in a practical way opposed to the death penalty, because when in doubt I want to err on the side of life. Better to keep someone alive whom you ought to put to death than kill someone you ought to let live.
 
Besides what I wrote let me comment on the comparison between abortion and capital punishment. Even granting that capital punishment is never justified in the modern world, which is worse, a few dozen (mostly) guilty people killed each year in the United States or over a million innocent people killed each year in the United States? While both are very serious matters, in practical issues like voting for politicians one clearly vastly outweighs the other.

For the record this is from someone who loathes the Republican Party and is currently unsure how or if he’ll vote next year.
 
Now I recently got into a tissy with conservatives from a conservative blog . I charged them as hypocrites for supporting DP and protesting Abortion . Many of them know I am a proud Catholic and one of them attempted to use the Catechism against me . The Church to my knowledge does not force anyone to support DP Am I wrong ? Anyway , I pointed out to them that if I were not Catholic and held the same position they would not be able to attempt to use the catechism . i asked them what their answer would be then. Well Here I am asking the forum of fellow Catholics what they think about the Death Penalty .I take the position that one is a hypocrite if he or she supports the Death penalty and at the same time protests abortion .(I protest both forms of murder )
Yep am also against Capital Punishment, when I hear a Protestant Evangelical speaking about the fact their pro life, I always get a little woozy in the stomach, because experience tells me that their not Pro Life in a consistent manner. When the subject comes up, I do indicate that I’m pro life and then quickly follow up by saying this means, anti abortion, anti capital punishment and anti euthanasia.
 
Besides what I wrote let me comment on the comparison between abortion and capital punishment. Even granting that capital punishment is never justified in the modern world, which is worse, a few dozen (mostly) guilty people killed each year in the United States or over a million innocent people killed each year in the United States? While both are very serious matters, in practical issues like voting for politicians one clearly vastly outweighs the other.

For the record this is from someone who loathes the Republican Party and is currently unsure how or if he’ll vote next year.
You are correct in indicating the numbers between the two are extreme, one could be called a tragic epidemic and the other a very limited, but still tragic practice. I fear if a certain segment of society had their way the word limited would be replaced with frequent.
 
The Church teaches that abortion is always and everywhere a grave evil and Catholics cannot in any way support it.

The Church also teaches that the punishment of criminals is just and that sometimes, legitimate authority may resort to capital punishment.

The Church also teaches that, in today’s world, the circumstances where capital punishment would be appropriate are rare.

It is possible to support the use of the death penalty in limited cases and still be a pro-life Catholic.

It is **not possible **to support abortion in any case and still be a pro-life Catholic.

Abortion = always evil
Capital punishment = prudential judgement.
 
Well Here I am asking the forum of fellow Catholics what they think about the Death Penalty .I take the position that one is a hypocrite if he or she supports the Death penalty and at the same time protests abortion .(I protest both forms of murder )
I am Catholic and I think that the CCC paragraph 2267 leaves room for Catholics to disagree on the Death Penalty, but there is no room for any disagreement when it comes to Abortion, CCC paragraph 2271.

I think that in the United States the Dealth Penalty should be used and used more frequently with a much quicker appeals process.

I think this for several reasons including:
  1. It is possible in today’s society to be fully certain the guilty party’s identity.
  2. Our country literally can not afford to pay for the health care, food, clothing, security, etc. that it takes to operate overcrowded prisons for the life time of each convicted criminal. (and don’t get me started on how unfair it is to provide free health care to convicted criminals when so many productive citizens are unable to afford it)
  3. The current penal sysem in our country allows murders to get out of prison on parole. Many of these criminals violate that parole by becoming repeat offenders of child rape and murder and most actually commit worse crimes while on parole than they did prior to being convicted in the first place. Even with the 3 Strikes the criminal has to be convicted of 3 felonies Before they are put away for Life.
  4. Prisoners still are able break out of prison and re-offend before/if they get caught again
  5. The Dealth Penalty in the United States does not take away the possibility for a convicted criminal to repent as they have regular access to priests/chaplans and can repent at any point after their murder, during their trial, during their appeal and entire time leading up to the execution date once set. It is because convicted criminal on death penalty knows exactly when they will die they have the blessing of actually being able to be more prepared for their death/eternity as compared to their victims whose deaths came at an unexpected and untimely manner.
As long as the United States provides parole for criminals, and right now we have to have parole because as a nation we do not have the money necessary to a stop to offer early parole, and as long as the United States’ prisons aren’t escape proof, the only way possible to effectively defend human lives against an unjust aggressor, like a repeat child rapists/murderers and people like Bind Torchure Kill, is the Death Penalty. Maybe in the future our penal system can become fool-proof, but until then the Death Penalty is necessary for the safety of citizens.
 
Death penalty: Someone has been found guilty of a crime and a jury has decided that the punishment is death.

Abortion: A baby has been found guilty of being in the wrong womb and even though innocent the penalty is death.
 
I might be strange or stupid but I don’t really understand as such topic can be considered in a Christian way of being.
I understand perfecly every one trying to follow their own inclinations, but in this case for both case we have a complete violation of at least three basic commandements:

1- Not killing
2- Love your Enemies (the unborn is a very potential enemy to our egoistic development; the killer is an enemy)
3- Not judging
4- Forgiviness (how many times? 7x77 and was figurative)

How can we go around this? And why we have to spend time in going around this? Even though we would find a moral justifications it doesn’t mean that is Christian.
Rational Satanism is morally correct and social humanistic correct but not Christian.

I understand someone saying nevertheless I am Christian I am a sinner and my idea of justice is blinding my faith, than trying to find a way of justification. Being Christians I don’t think is trying to be confortable.
 
Personally I would prefer we don’t kill anyone. Yes, I know there are certain rare situations for everything, and someone will say…“Well, what about this situation.etc” However I prefer to reduce the slaughter to a drip if at all.

Probly with the DO, no-one extracts any satistfaction from it. Victims familys may extract there pound of flesh. But they won’t find forgiveness through revenge.

I’ve been folowing part II of the NH-CT case here. First defendant was sentenced to death. Second is on trial now. Two Daughters and a Wife of a man here were raped and murdered then set on fire. He was in the basement tied and beat, somehow he escaped the fire.

However today he’s sitting through the second part of the jury trial. I’m not sure what to make of all that. First its horrific for something like this to happen, and traumatic for live as a result of it. The depth of loss and grief must be unbearable. To see one trial and re-live the horror I would assume was surrealistic. But the second? I don’t know what to make of that.

To what purpose does it all serve? A man sits in cell his entire life maybe converts, maybe not. He’s punished however you look at it. A danger to others? I don’t think so thye are locked up 23hrs daily and don’t leave the cell without shackles and handcuffs on. Expense? Its more expensive to kill them than than stick them in a cell. I’m not sure how in good conscious someone is the executioner? Would you feel confortable with the job? Uum, I think I’ll pass.

Those victims? Tell me where is sanity after all of that but through Gods Grace? Revenge, poetic justice none of that will bring back the loved ones, none of that will make you feel anybetter, though I suppose those who never took the class would disagree.

In truth we here in the US have 1/4th of the worlds population incarcerated, Right Here! Do the math of world population, and incarceration rates by country. Were winning whatever that means.

I also undestand the CC on Abortion, its sad, feelings are that the Mass Murder and Slaughter has to stop, now. I don’t know about what extreme medical abortion should be allowed. But I do know clinics on every street corner like Burger King and McDonalds is a bit much. The new birth conrol is abortion and has been a very long time. ITs not a little out of control, its completely over the cliff of insanity.

To add insult to misery, these emotional unbalanced people now wander around society lost for a decade or two. Surely you don’t believe after the abortion its a walk down Candy St? With problems we are creating more problems, which create more social indifference.

Whats the male attitude? Pretty much like Adam in the Garden. Well God, She ate the Fruit its all her fault. Good looking out Adam. While he runs around spreading more death as if its a joke.

What a tangled web we weave. We might as well throw the seniors in their twilight years in this equation, and the retarded and deformed. Yes they would just assume kill them also. Adulters? Should we stone them to death?

First thing they do in Hosp is run up to you with papers about LIFE? Excuse me, but I’m convinced we need to stop the killing. Let a half-century/century or so pass, and we’ll re-evaluate. Surely we don’t have all this right. Way to much carnage certainly this can’t be right. They throw Seniors on the street, steal from them, abuse them verbally, physically and psychologically, and this is what? OK? And say…oh well they should have planned better?

Its “all” very disturbing. Not to distract from the OP, just to move in and around it. Killing and Hurting orthers, is killing and hurting others. I’m not sure how you slice this cake and make it come out OK. I’m convinced the problem is the initial act which results in the later with killing and hurting. There is NO good quality to any of it. Its a multipication of problems which equate to Horror. Whichever seat you chose to sit in? Your still cooperating with the Horror. The “I didn’t do anything” thinking is a farce. Guilty by cooperation I state. Even if that cooperation is just your silence and turning the other cheek.

Breath, chose to live. Allow others to do the same. Be carefull how you judge, you’ll be judged with the same measure. You can live a “perfect” life and in a NY-Moment your entire life can be turned up-side down. And all you thought you knew, then, you will truly understand.

Lets choose life for a few centurys and see what social issues arrise, then we’ll revisit. We already seen the folly of all this other thinking which promotes DEATH. Hwo about we just stop it. And yes I know there will be those extreme exceptions to the rules. However lets stop 98% and in mathmatic probability we’ll live with the 2% and work with it.

Peace
 
As a convert who has been in favor of the death penalty, the Church’s position on this has not been easy for me to accept. But I do accept it, because if I accept the authority of the Church (and I wouldn’t convert if I didn’t), then I must humble myself before Her teaching, even if I don’t completely understand it or it makes me uncomfortable. That’s faith, for you.

Accordingly, I believe that executions should be rare, and only carried out when it is necessary for the safety of the public. For me, that is not the same as saying that there should be no executions, because a number of very dangerous people have killed and ordered killings from behind bars (gang members, organized crime).
Those victims? Tell me where is sanity after all of that but through Gods Grace? Revenge, poetic justice none of that will bring back the loved ones, none of that will make you feel anybetter, though I suppose those who never took the class would disagree.
I think that more than a few victims’ families have expressed closure and relief upon the execution of their loved one’s killer, so my stance on the DP has to be in spite of this.
In truth we here in the US have 1/4th of the worlds population incarcerated, Right Here! Do the math of world population, and incarceration rates by country. Were winning whatever that means.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate
We have 1/4 of the world’s inmates, or about 1 in 100 Americans are incarcerated. I would guess that very few of those are on death row, however.
 
Personally I would prefer we don’t kill anyone. Yes, I know there are certain rare situations for everything, and someone will say…“Well, what about this situation.etc” However I prefer to reduce the slaughter to a drip if at all.

Probly with the DO, no-one extracts any satistfaction from it. Victims familys may extract there pound of flesh. But they won’t find forgiveness through revenge.

I’ve been folowing part II of the NH-CT case here. First defendant was sentenced to death. Second is on trial now. Two Daughters and a Wife of a man here were raped and murdered then set on fire. He was in the basement tied and beat, somehow he escaped the fire.

However today he’s sitting through the second part of the jury trial. I’m not sure what to make of all that. First its horrific for something like this to happen, and traumatic for live as a result of it. The depth of loss and grief must be unbearable. To see one trial and re-live the horror I would assume was surrealistic. But the second? I don’t know what to make of that.

To what purpose does it all serve? A man sits in cell his entire life maybe converts, maybe not. He’s punished however you look at it. A danger to others? I don’t think so thye are locked up 23hrs daily and don’t leave the cell without shackles and handcuffs on. Expense? Its more expensive to kill them than than stick them in a cell. I’m not sure how in good conscious someone is the executioner? Would you feel confortable with the job? Uum, I think I’ll pass.

Those victims? Tell me where is sanity after all of that but through Gods Grace? Revenge, poetic justice none of that will bring back the loved ones, none of that will make you feel anybetter, though I suppose those who never took the class would disagree.

In truth we here in the US have 1/4th of the worlds population incarcerated, Right Here! Do the math of world population, and incarceration rates by country. Were winning whatever that means.

I also undestand the CC on Abortion, its sad, feelings are that the Mass Murder and Slaughter has to stop, now. I don’t know about what extreme medical abortion should be allowed. But I do know clinics on every street corner like Burger King and McDonalds is a bit much. The new birth conrol is abortion and has been a very long time. ITs not a little out of control, its completely over the cliff of insanity.

To add insult to misery, these emotional unbalanced people now wander around society lost for a decade or two. Surely you don’t believe after the abortion its a walk down Candy St? With problems we are creating more problems, which create more social indifference.

Whats the male attitude? Pretty much like Adam in the Garden. Well God, She ate the Fruit its all her fault. Good looking out Adam. While he runs around spreading more death as if its a joke.

What a tangled web we weave. We might as well throw the seniors in their twilight years in this equation, and the retarded and deformed. Yes they would just assume kill them also. Adulters? Should we stone them to death?

First thing they do in Hosp is run up to you with papers about LIFE? Excuse me, but I’m convinced we need to stop the killing. Let a half-century/century or so pass, and we’ll re-evaluate. Surely we don’t have all this right. Way to much carnage certainly this can’t be right. They throw Seniors on the street, steal from them, abuse them verbally, physically and psychologically, and this is what? OK? And say…oh well they should have planned better?

Its “all” very disturbing. Not to distract from the OP, just to move in and around it. Killing and Hurting orthers, is killing and hurting others. I’m not sure how you slice this cake and make it come out OK. I’m convinced the problem is the initial act which results in the later with killing and hurting. There is NO good quality to any of it. Its a multipication of problems which equate to Horror. Whichever seat you chose to sit in? Your still cooperating with the Horror. The “I didn’t do anything” thinking is a farce. Guilty by cooperation I state. Even if that cooperation is just your silence and turning the other cheek.

Breath, chose to live. Allow others to do the same. Be carefull how you judge, you’ll be judged with the same measure. You can live a “perfect” life and in a NY-Moment your entire life can be turned up-side down. And all you thought you knew, then, you will truly understand.

Lets choose life for a few centurys and see what social issues arrise, then we’ll revisit. We already seen the folly of all this other thinking which promotes DEATH. Hwo about we just stop it. And yes I know there will be those extreme exceptions to the rules. However lets stop 98% and in mathmatic probability we’ll live with the 2% and work with it.

Peace
as i have seen this view on other forums many times before i have to disagree with your thesis, such as the topic of bozza and louic defren, arguments such as these are down right obscene. the pope and all his wisdom must agree that even though abortion is legal in canada their must be in jesus’ name a figure who dares to defy such treason, even a fish could tell you such things my son.
 
I might be strange or stupid but I don’t really understand as such topic can be considered in a Christian way of being.
I understand perfecly every one trying to follow their own inclinations, but in this case for both case we have a complete violation of at least three basic commandements:
I think I can appreciate your sentiment, but I can’t quite agree with the specifics.
1- Not killing
The Church (and the Jews for that matter) has always recognized that there are legitimate reasons to take life which do not violate this commandment.
2- Love your Enemies
Absolutely, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t defend ourselves against them.
3- Not judging
…not sure where you’re coming from.
4- Forgiviness (how many times? 7x77 and was figurative)
Of course, but defense is legitimate.
 
In truth we here in the US have 1/4th of the worlds population incarcerated, Right Here! Do the math of world population, and incarceration rates by country. Were winning whatever that means.
I think you need to check your Math

Total number of inmates in the US 2,420,000 (2008 numbers, the most recent I could find).
The average daily population is about 775,000 since most inmates are not incarcerated for the full year.

World population = 6,900,000,000

That’s .003 or a little over 1/4 of 1%. NOT 1/4 of the population.

Even as a percentage of the US population, it’s less than 1%.
 
I think you need to check your Math

Total number of inmates in the US 2,420,000 (2008 numbers, the most recent I could find).
The average daily population is about 775,000 since most inmates are not incarcerated for the full year.

World population = 6,900,000,000

That’s .003 or a little over 1/4 of 1%. NOT 1/4 of the population.

Even as a percentage of the US population, it’s less than 1%.
Incarcerated would be what I’m referring to worldwide. We have the most 1/4. Sorry about the confusion.
 
Incarcerated would be what I’m referring to worldwide. We have the most 1/4. Sorry about the confusion.
Nope. The US does represent almost 1/4 of all those incarcerated world wide. But not as a percentage of population, just as a percentage of those already in prison. There are quite a few countries that send more people to jail in a given year but the US tends to keep them longer. For those against the death penalty, that should be a good thing.
 
the pope and all his wisdom must agree that even though abortion is legal in canada their must be in jesus’ name a figure who dares to defy such treason, even a fish could tell you such things my son.
I am promoting, Life. No form of death. I’m pretty sure so is the Pope. I haven’t heard otherwise. How many or who that also arrive to promote this remains to be seen.

I know of no talking fish just men who speak in error for personal agenda and not Gods Will.

Peace
 
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