Death Penalty and Abortion

[GaryTaylor]

Nope. The US does represent almost 1/4 of all those incarcerated world wide. But not as a percentage of population, just as a percentage of those already in prison. There are quite a few countries that send more people to jail in a given year but the US tends to keep them longer. For those against the death penalty, that should be a good thing.

Gottcha:thumbsup:

 

[GaryTaylor]

For those against the death penalty, that should be a good thing.

This part I have a completely different thinking, which leads to warehousing non-violent criminals for long periods of time. LIke in Texas for smoking small amounts of Pot. I know they stopped. But another conversation for another day. Did they let them all out yet? There were people doing Life for decades for that. Another conversation I suppose.

 

[Corki]

This part I have a completely different thinking, which leads to warehousing non-violent criminals for long periods of time. LIke in Texas for smoking small amounts of Pot. I know they stopped. But another conversation for another day. Did they let them all out yet? There were people doing Life for decades for that. Another conversation I suppose.

Well, in the context of the thread, this means that violent and subversive criminals are incarcerated for long periods of time rather than executed. Many states have life sentance without the possibility of parole as a sentancing alternative in capital crimes. That drives the rates up.

And yes, incarceration for marijuana use is a topic for another thread. (do a seach - it’s been debated a lot here on CAF)

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well, in the context of the thread, this means that violent and subversive criminals are incarcerated for long periods of time rather than executed.

Here I agree and see it as the only solution.

Peace

 

[porthos11]

Now I recently got into a tissy with conservatives from a conservative blog . I charged them as hypocrites for supporting DP and protesting Abortion . Many of them know I am a proud Catholic and one of them attempted to use the Catechism against me . The Church to my knowledge does not force anyone to support DP Am I wrong ? Anyway , I pointed out to them that if I were not Catholic and held the same position they would not be able to attempt to use the catechism . i asked them what their answer would be then. Well Here I am asking the forum of fellow Catholics what they think about the Death Penalty .I take the position that one is a hypocrite if he or she supports the Death penalty and at the same time protests abortion .(I protest both forms of murder )

The problem was your approach as you yourself admit: you charged people with hypocrisy. This will never get you anywhere as this is an ad hominem attack. No matter what your preference is, the following facts are in place:

1. The Church allows you to hold your anti-death penalty position as evidenced by her current and previous Pontiff and bishops.
2. The Church, however, has also held and still holds that recourse to the death penalty can be moral. By this alone, the Church declares that the death penalty is not intrinsically evil. One may therefore legitimately support the death penalty without going against the Church’s moral teachings.
3. Abortion is an intrinsic evil and may never be morally used under any circumstances.

Therefore, since you are permitted to be against the death penalty, do so. However, do not call fellow Catholics names for holding on to something the Church allows as well. On the death penalty, the Church permits disagreement, and therefore so should you. This kind of behaviour demonstrates a lack of charity. I urge you to stop calling people names. Direct your anger towards those who support the real evil of abortion.

 

[Bluegoat]

The Church teaches that abortion is always and everywhere a grave evil and Catholics cannot in any way support it.

The Church also teaches that the punishment of criminals is just and that sometimes, legitimate authority may resort to capital punishment.

The Church also teaches that, in today’s world, the circumstances where capital punishment would be appropriate are rare.

It is possible to support the use of the death penalty in limited cases and still be a pro-life Catholic.

It is **not possible **to support abortion in any case and still be a pro-life Catholic.

Abortion = always evil
Capital punishment = prudential judgement.

This is a fair assesment of the CC’s position I think.

The trouble with it is that many Catholics go very far outside it as far as support of the death penalty goes, and often, sickeningly, even seeming to take satisfaction when the death penalty is used. Whereas if one follows the CCC on this it would seem that even an appropriate use would be an occasion for regret.

I don’t think it should be any surprise, when such views are endorsed so self-righteously by so called “conservative” Catholics who are unwilling even to admit that there are real issues that the pro-choice lobby has brought up, that people tend to brand conservative American Christians as hypocrites on life issues.

 

[truthsave]

I think I can appreciate your sentiment, but I can’t quite agree with the specifics.

The Church (and the Jews for that matter) has always recognized that there are legitimate reasons to take life which do not violate this commandment.

Absolutely, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t defend ourselves against them.

…not sure where you’re coming from.

Of course, but defense is legitimate.

Sorry I am realizing I am in the wrong side of Christianity.
I thought a follower of Christ didn’t have any right of defense, if they believe their spiritual integrity is more important their material integrity.
I should have also missquoted Jesus when said …give him the other side of your face or if somebody … take from you something(I cannot translate in english ) give him also your coat.
I must practice (at least try to practice since still I have some important difficulties) an old version of Christianity or Jesus vision in the meantime must have been somehow updated to be more politically correct.
Of course I will do my research about the matter.
Sorry about my ignorance

 

[chipeto]

Sorry I am realizing I am in the wrong side of Christianity.
I thought a follower of Christ didn’t have any right of defense, if they believe their spiritual integrity is more important their material integrity.
I should have also missquoted Jesus when said …give him the other side of your face or if somebody … take from you something(I cannot translate in english ) give him also your coat.

Is this sarcasm? Different Christians will have different views on this. Some, like Tolstoy, will make the Sermon on the Mount the center of their theology. I was attempting to give a Catholic perspective.

I must practice (at least try to practice since still I have some important difficulties) an old version of Christianity or Jesus vision in the meantime must have been somehow updated to be more politically correct.

I couldn’t agree with you on this, since I believe that the Catholic Church has been in existence since the apostles, and has authority to pronounce on these matters. I appreciate that you see things differently. So, we know on what first principles we differ.

 

[porthos11]

Sorry I am realizing I am in the wrong side of Christianity.
I thought a follower of Christ didn’t have any right of defense, if they believe their spiritual integrity is more important their material integrity.
I should have also missquoted Jesus when said …give him the other side of your face or if somebody … take from you something(I cannot translate in english ) give him also your coat.
I must practice (at least try to practice since still I have some important difficulties) an old version of Christianity or Jesus vision in the meantime must have been somehow updated to be more politically correct.
Of course I will do my research about the matter.
Sorry about my ignorance

Nope. A follower of Christ has no right to revenge. However, the inspired Scriptures put the sword in the hand of the State, so if we desire justice, we turn to the State to impose it (Romans 13:4-5).

I would also caution you to phrase your words properly, as they may be misconstrued as sarcastic.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Now I recently got into a tissy with conservatives from a conservative blog . I charged them as hypocrites for supporting DP and protesting Abortion . Many of them know I am a proud Catholic and one of them attempted to use the Catechism against me . The Church to my knowledge does not force anyone to support DP Am I wrong ? Anyway , I pointed out to them that if I were not Catholic and held the same position they would not be able to attempt to use the catechism . i asked them what their answer would be then. Well Here I am asking the forum of fellow Catholics what they think about the Death Penalty .I take the position that one is a hypocrite if he or she supports the Death penalty and at the same time protests abortion .(I protest both forms of murder )

Abortion: the intentional killing of innocent human life on a massive scale.

Death penalty: the killing of guilty (of heinous crime) on a limited scale.

(except the process of determining guilt is a human process and subject to error. When/if an error occurs then it seems to close to abortion for comfort)

 

[Hail_Linus]

I agree with the Catechism. However, since 1976, there have been 1,271 executions. This just is not a big issue compared to others and it would not affect my vote.

However, I am a human being and if I was the husband and father of the victims of the Connecticut case I would probably want handle the execution myself.

As a side issue, there is another thing that disturbs me about the Connecticut case. I grew up in that little Connecticut town, Cheshire, until I was 12 years old. That place was so safe. As kids we would play in the woods. You didn’t have to lock your door. I guess the Cheshire I remember does not exist anymore.

 

[truthsave]

Is this sarcasm? Different Christians will have different views on this. Some, like Tolstoy, will make the Sermon on the Mount the center of their theology. I was attempting to give a Catholic perspective.

I couldn’t agree with you on this, since I believe that the Catholic Church has been in existence since the apostles, and has authority to pronounce on these matters. I appreciate that you see things differently. So, we know on what first principles we differ.

No sarcasm, please forgive me if I expessed myself in a way that hurted you somehow.

My goal is just to be a better Christian.
Again sorry. When I read it again it is true that could have been seen as sarcastic.

 

[Defender1]

When we get to this kind of issue I just say to myself: what would be Jesus position on the matter? At the end we should follow His way not justify our needs and weakness.

I don’t believe for one second Jesus would support DP or abortion in whatever situation.
Even the most drammatic, brutal, devilish situation.
He had mercy to men torturing and crucifying Him, and mercy even to demons that He allowed to go into pigs bodies after having chased them out from a man.

 

[Defender1]

The problem was your approach as you yourself admit: you charged people with hypocrisy. This will never get you anywhere as this is an ad hominem attack. No matter what your preference is, the following facts are in place:

1. The Church allows you to hold your anti-death penalty position as evidenced by her current and previous Pontiff and bishops.
2. The Church, however, has also held and still holds that recourse to the death penalty can be moral. By this alone, the Church declares that the death penalty is not intrinsically evil. One may therefore legitimately support the death penalty without going against the Church’s moral teachings.
3. Abortion is an intrinsic evil and may never be morally used under any circumstances.

Therefore, since you are permitted to be against the death penalty, do so. However, do not call fellow Catholics names for holding on to something the Church allows as well. On the death penalty, the Church permits disagreement, and therefore so should you. This kind of behaviour demonstrates a lack of charity. I urge you to stop calling people names. Direct your anger towards those who support the real evil of abortion.

WoW stop traffic sir for minute

for the most part you had a very well thought out answer and I applaud you . Lets take the hand of your holster for a second . I am not name calling per say , I am just yelling hypocracy for protesting one form of murder and supporting another. THe Catechsim is very clear that If I support it I am in the good still . I accept it . However I want to know from you sir that if the catechism did not state what it states , do you still support DP?

 

[Defender1]

I agree with the Catechism. However, since 1976, there have been 1,271 executions. This just is not a big issue compared to others and it would not affect my vote.

However, I am a human being and if I was the husband and father of the victims of the Connecticut case I would probably want handle the execution myself.

As a side issue, there is another thing that disturbs me about the Connecticut case. I grew up in that little Connecticut town, Cheshire, until I was 12 years old. That place was so safe. As kids we would play in the woods. You didn’t have to lock your door. I guess the Cheshire I remember does not exist anymore.

If a person murdered any member of my family I would most likely end up in jail for murdering the suspect . I am a sinner and would have to pay the consequence .

 

[Corki]

Whereas if one follows the CCC on this it would seem that even an appropriate use would be an occasion for regret.

AMEN.

I am reminded of the old Western movies where the judge sentances someone to “hang from the neck until dead”. It is always a sad and somber pronouncement, almost always followed by “and may God have mercy upon your soul”. As crude as the execution was in those days, we could use some of that sentiment.

 

[porthos11]

WoW stop traffic sir for minute

for the most part you had a very well thought out answer and I applaud you . Lets take the hand of your holster for a second . I am not name calling per say , I am just yelling hypocracy for protesting one form of murder and supporting another. THe Catechsim is very clear that If I support it I am in the good still . I accept it . However I want to know from you sir that if the catechism did not state what it states , do you still support DP?

And I insist that you do not yell hypocrisy towards those who do support the death penalty. That is reserved for those who profess to be Catholic yet support abortion.

For this discussion, my own views on the death penalty are irrelevant. I will simply uphold peoples’ rights given by the Church, to disagree with it as you do, or to agree with it as others do. If the Church has allowed one thing, not you nor anyone has the right to condemn those who simply hold on to what the Church permits.

I have no problem with your view on the death penalty. I have a problem with your labelling of people who disagree with you even in good faith.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The world has changed a bit, not so much Cheshire, I have close friends there. My cousin lives on the Hamden/Chesire line. Its a nice community. It was targeted and evil struck. We all acknowledge that we have reached a period in time where life means little, they will kill you out here for a Gold Chain around your neck if not less. If no-one steps in the gap or you don’t know exactly what to do? You can quickly become a deer in the headlights.

You see that was evil that entered that Chesire home. Prudential judgement is the part I take issue with. For example I remember there was a DP, then it was outlawed, then states begin bringing it back. For fact it has never detered crime. Thats a falacy. Also no-one seems to come out with the key element needed to move past, which is forgiveness.

The prudential judgement part I don’t exactly grasp. For example.

When a fellow in Georgia robs a 7-11 and kills a clerk during the course of the felony which makes it Felony/Murder and so he is executed.

Then the next fellow kills 9 “entire Family” including the dog, and is given life?? Well 225 years exactly. 25 per person. They didn’t count the dog.

I’m not much grasping this concept, it doesn’t seem to make sense. I fail to see the “justice” part or the logic.

So it doesn’t deter crime, no-one leave’s “feeling better” unless some contrived idea of satisfaction through death, is what one entertains, or revenge, or the, they deserve it thinking. Not sure of “all” the incorrect thinking. Certainly forgiveness isn’t fitting those equation’s. Financial? Well its just cheaper to put them so deep in hole you have to pump light into them, and leave them locked up.

However, its incorrect to act off your rage “first” and then say, OK we killed the killer, now I can forgive??? Nope, thats wrong also.

Prudential judgement? Don’t know what to say about it. I believe we are now talking about words on paper which does equate to Abortion. More words on paper. Did you know that between WWI and WWII 5500 peace treaties were signed. By WWII only 208 stood. Words on paper mean little when the true meaning of Justice isn’t understood. We would have to go back to Socrate’s here and Plato’s Republic for the True Meaning. However frankly I believe by large we have it confused. We don’t have leaders looking out for “US”, they are looking out for themselves and the true meaning of Justice is LOST.

As the slogan went in the 60’s Why would you Kill people, who Kill people, to show that Killing people is wrong???

I thought about that since the 60’s and have NO ANSWER. The only possible solution could be Thou Shall Not Kill. As God spoke on the Ten-Commandments.

I forget exactly what Erasmus stated about this, Something to the effect of Death and War are delicious for those who never been there. As for the execution part in Cheshire? Exactly what went down that night in Chesire I do not know. I wish I was there to stand in the gap. God didn’t place me in that gap, he placed the good doctor their.

I never assume there will be life later on, I only know what life exists at this moment. And I always, always, always choose to preserve it, in the moment. Its much easier than living with the should-have, could-have, didn’ts. The Oh-well, he was evil, or a criminal. does little to comfort my soul. I can’t even define Good or Bad but through the CC. As I have mentioned I have seen horror turn out to be Blessings. And what I thought to be Blessing turn out to be mud. I can’t define good or bad I allow the church and God to do this today. If anyone believes they have the recipe down? Hang around a few more decades.

As for what the Church states about the DP? I believe you’d be hard pressed to find the Pope agreeing with the DP. However the Pope isn’t making the laws of the USA or elsewhere. We are counting on so-called moral men at the moment who seem to btw have some socialist agenda and be not so moral. Such is the “Abortion” dilemma. How that equates to the Pope/CC I do not know. Scares me a bit more to tell you the truth. I doubt we’d even be having this conversation had the Pope been making the choice on the DP case’s. Or any of these other issues. Fact is he’s not, we are.

From what I see, they might as well walk in chambers and flip a coin. It all sounds nice and neat when over, with jurys, and mitigating factors, evidence etc. However at the end of the day, it still makes no-sense. And I stand by my original post. Killing the unborn, criminals, elderly or whoever, I wouldn’t care if its Spot the Dog. Is UNACCEPTABLE!!

Will occasions arrise? Apparently they won’t stop, God sends meat, satan sends cooks. Don’t know what to tell you, stand in the gap preserve life, ALWAYS. Don’t worry about “what will” happen. Worry about “what is” happening. And it looks like Cooperation with Death to me.

And NO I don’t lock my doors. I’m not living scared or changing my life one iota. Matter of fact someone called me on the phone last night suggesting home protection? I quickly hung up on them because I’m not looking for protection. And I doubt their idea of it will really protect me when push comes to shove. Fear doesn’t motivate me, Life motivates me. Its fleeting to believe to police will make it to your home before the chaos occurs. In fact they never do, they always arrive AFTER.

Whats the purpose of the DP??? Thats the QUESTION? And to that question I see NO LOGICAL answer…SORRY!!!

Before you answer remember NEVER has it detered crime nor is it a financial asset, in fact its a loss.

PS…I do agree we are on ABORTION this year and not the DP. And no I don’t lose sleep over the DP. However the OP combines both:shrug: As I mentioned earlier we might as well just make it a trifecta.

What about the family of the one you would kill? They didn’t kill anyone?

SO I REPEAT, Whats the purpose of the DP??? Thats the QUESTION?

 

[GaryTaylor]

For this discussion, my own views on the death penalty are irrelevant. I will simply uphold peoples’ rights given by the Church, to disagree with it as you do, or to agree with it as others do. If the Church has allowed one thing, not you nor anyone has the right to condemn those who simply hold on to what the Church permits.

The church isn’t here or there where you are, WE are making the laws. What the church has to do with the conversation of the Sanctity if Life is beyond me. What are you saying the only way to determine is by the church?

Umm No we can actually choose to preserve life without a Green Light from the CC. Though it goes a long way in moral thinking to view the church. However they so Obviously are not the final say here or your country.

We seem to have church/state confused here. I’m not promoting faith, I’m promoting LIFE.

 

[GaryTaylor]

This is a fair assesment of the CC’s position I think.

The trouble with it is that many Catholics go very far outside it as far as support of the death penalty goes, and often, sickeningly, even seeming to take satisfaction when the death penalty is used. Whereas if one follows the CCC on this it would seem that even an appropriate use would be an occasion for regret.

I don’t think it should be any surprise, when such views are endorsed so self-righteously by so called “conservative” Catholics who are unwilling even to admit that there are real issues that the pro-choice lobby has brought up, that people tend to brand conservative American Christians as hypocrites on life issues.

Agee’d

I’m not standing for the CC on any of these issues. I stand for LIfe on all of them. If the CC has some issue with Pro-Life which is a bit extreme? Then lets stop the other 95% of the slaughter.

And if their postion is a bit lax on the DP? Well, then lets step up sane thinking. But lets not confuse the CC with our situation here. They are not here making the laws. we are.

So who shall we kill, when, how, and how long, and why?

Peace