Death Penalty and Abortion

[chipeto]

Gary,

It sound to me like, if you have some difference with the Church on this issue, then you may have to work that out within your own conscience, and I’m not sure that anyone else can help with that. But perhaps I have misunderstood you.

The Church’s position on the DP seems rather clear to me, and has been ably explained. There is nothing inconsistent about it, provided one accepts the moral authority of the Church.

There is nothing preventing us, as citizens and voters, from pushing for laws and social policies that reflect the Church’s position on the DP.

 

[Defender1]

And I insist that you do not yell hypocrisy towards those who do support the death penalty. That is reserved for those who profess to be Catholic yet support abortion.

For this discussion, my own views on the death penalty are irrelevant. I will simply uphold peoples’ rights given by the Church, to disagree with it as you do, or to agree with it as others do. If the Church has allowed one thing, not you nor anyone has the right to condemn those who simply hold on to what the Church permits.

I have no problem with your view on the death penalty. I have a problem with your labelling of people who disagree with you even in good faith.

You did not answer my questions and I insist that you pay attention and think outside the box for a second here . Say your a protestant and I yelled hypocrite at you for supporting DP , and you have no catechism as we do to fall back on , How do you respond ? You dont have to answer but if you respond no tip toeing around it just give it to me straight .

 

[GaryTaylor]

Gary,

It sound to me like, if you have some difference with the Church on this issue, then you may have to work that out within your own conscience, and I’m not sure that anyone else can help with that. But perhaps I have misunderstood you.

The Church’s position on the DP seems rather clear to me, and has been ably explained. There is nothing inconsistent about it, provided one accepts the moral authority of the Church.

There is nothing preventing us, as citizens and voters, from pushing for laws and social policies that reflect the Church’s position on the DP.

No I’m in total agreement with the church. However, My point is they have no “authority” in the realm of USA or Canada? So I believe we have to view this realistic and from the postion we find ourselves in, be it Canada or the US.

The fact is we need to cut way back on the Abortion issue. Will that met the CC idea of correct? probly not. However can’t we save lives still? This looks like genocide

What I and the CC believe/think is at the far end of the spectrum. As I mentioned I’ll take a 95% increase in the saving of life At any rate it must slow down to a very large degree. Follow? Yes I’m Catholic, I’m also American, and its a combination of the two my conjecture comes from? I’m not speaking from strickly from a Catholic point of view here. When do Catholcis make President here? The prejudice runs deep there also in the USA.

Peace

 

[white_sheep]

I take the position that one is a hypocrite if he or she supports the Death penalty and at the same time protests abortion .(I protest both forms of murder )

And you push your agenda with lies? One is not a hypocrite for supporting the death penalty and opposing abortion. That is a lie. Capital punishment is not murder. That is a lie.

 

[Ender]

Whats the purpose of the DP??? Thats the QUESTION?

The purpose of capital punishment is to satisfy the obligation of justice that requires the application of a punishment with a severity commensurate with the severity of the crime. For the crime of murder, the just punishment is death.

Ender

 

[Wardog]

On a related subject in another forum, it was clear that everyone there thought that a raped woman should not be allowed to have an abortion. She should carry the baby to term and if unable to raise the child then give it up for adoption. I think that is a tough call, but can see the logic of that position.
If I am willing to require a woman to take a baby that was forced on her this way to term, then I am quite willing to tell a victim’s family that they will not get closure or vengeance from executing the guilty party.
I think there is a lot to be said for what used to be called a seamless garment argument against any form of taking of life; the Church was 100% for life in all cases, even when difficult. Maybe when it is difficult to follow is a more important time to listen to the Church.

 

[tbcrawford]

Now I recently got into a tissy with conservatives from a conservative blog . I charged them as hypocrites for supporting DP and protesting Abortion . Many of them know I am a proud Catholic and one of them attempted to use the Catechism against me . The Church to my knowledge does not force anyone to support DP Am I wrong ? Anyway , I pointed out to them that if I were not Catholic and held the same position they would not be able to attempt to use the catechism . i asked them what their answer would be then. Well Here I am asking the forum of fellow Catholics what they think about the Death Penalty .I take the position that one is a hypocrite if he or she supports the Death penalty and at the same time protests abortion .(I protest both forms of murder )

I completely agree with you Defender.We are Christians.We are representing God’s love in our every action.If we truly love our neighbour as Christ taught us we should not be putting another to death.

The USCCB are in favour of abolishing the Death Penalty.We have sufficient means by which to ensure the safety of our society …prison,DP was only ever mean’t to be used in exceptional and rare case in America.

At the heart of Catholic teaching on the death penalty is the belief that “Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end…” (Catechism, No. 2258).

Forgiveness is what Christ taught us.Jesus himself even saying " Forgive them Father for they know not what they do"
If we put someone to death we are not giving them Christs example of love our neighbour.As long as our citizens are safe (with criminals safely in prison) we should pray for them and indeed we are called to visit them as in the Corporal Works of Mercy. The seven practices of charity toward our neighbour as we were commanded “Love thy Neighbour”…everyone!

Feed the hungry
Give drink to the thirsty
Clothe the naked
Shelter the homeless
Visit the sick
Visit those in prison
Bury the dead

{Regarding the death penalty, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent” (#2267).

The test of whether the death penalty can be used is whether society has alternative ways to protect itself, not how terrible the crime was. Life in prison without parole provides a non-lethal alternative to the death penalty. We can’t know whether God has a purpose for a person’s life, even one who has committed a terrible crime and must spend his or her life behind bars.}

America is the only ‘civilised’ country with the Death Penalty still remaining.

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you

Matthew 6:14
For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences.

Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Ephesians 4:32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

 

[tbcrawford]

Pope Benedict, then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, had a major role in drafting the 1992 Catechism and, especially, its 1997 revised passages. When he told journalists about the changes in 1997, he said while the principles do not absolutely exclude capital punishment, they do give “very severe or limited criteria for its moral use.”

“It seems to me it would be very difficult to meet the conditions today,” he had said.

Pope Benedict continues to send appeals for clemency in high-profile cases via telegrams either through a country’s bishops or nuncio, and he has praised a U.N. resolution calling upon states to institute a moratorium on the use of the death penalty.

Pope John Paul II also would punctuate his Angelus and general audience talks with impassioned appeals to spare the life of a prisoner on the verge of execution.

It was the Pope John Paul II who “earnestly hoped and prayed” for a global moratorium on the use of capital punishment and the abolition of the death penalty worldwide.

Pope Paul VI took concrete action in distancing the church from this form of punishment, first by formally banning the use of the death penalty in Vatican City State, although no one had been executed under the authority of the Vatican’s temporal governance since 1870.

Pope Paul also spoke publicly against planned executions and called for clemency for death-row inmates.

"The church upholds the inherent dignity of all human beings, even the most sin-filled, and believes in hope, conversion and mercy.There is always room for conversion, and forgiveness does not mean being naive about the real evil the human being is capable of committing.

The death penalty does not solve much; a victim still feels loss and crime is not deterred, he said.

Otherwise, “by killing the just or the unjust without understanding that they have dignity, we will find ourselves after 2,000 years in the same courtyard shouting, ‘Kill him!,’ like they did with Jesus.”

“God forgave us. He did not call us to death. Jesus let us overcome death” so as to more fully embrace life, he said.

“The beauty of forgiveness must also be truly discovered; it’s this that saves us,” said Di Ruzza

Tommaso Di Ruzza, desk officer at the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace.

 

[chipeto]

We have sufficient means by which to ensure the safety of our society …prison,

I wish I could be sure of that, but some have killed and have ordered killings from behind bars. Now, you can put them in solitary confinement or in ‘Supermax’ type prisons, where they have no real interaction with others, but then the charge is made that such isolation causes mental torment. It’s a conundrum. I do think, however, that such case are probably quite rare.

America is the only ‘civilised’ country with the Death Penalty still remaining.

And Japan.

 

[pageois]

.
2. Our country literally can not afford to pay for the health care, food, clothing, security, etc. that it takes to operate overcrowded prisons for the life time of each convicted criminal. (and don’t get me started on how unfair it is to provide free health care to convicted criminals when so many productive citizens are unable to afford it)
.

“Howsoever you treat the least of my brothers (such as murderers, drug traffickers, rapists, thieves etc in the modern world) you treat me”. Guess who said that?

Easy to repeat during a Sunday Gospel reading. Hard to accept and give life to.

We have at least one example of Jesus interceding to prevent capital punishment in the case of the woman condemned to be stoned to death for adultery. We have none of Him saying any words or doing any action whatsoever in furtherence of the judicial killing of anyone.

On a purely non-spiritiual plane, I want my country to reside in the same class as the UK, France, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc in terms of human rights and respect for human dignity. Not China, Malawi, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea, Cuba etc. Guess what all the second listed nations have in common? With the US, of course.

They judicially kill people.

God bless.

 

[tbcrawford]

“Howsoever you treat the least of my brothers (such as murderers, drug traffickers, rapists, thieves etc in the modern world) you treat me”. Guess who said that?

Easy to repeat during a Sunday Gospel reading. Hard to accept and give life to.

We have at least one example of Jesus interceding to prevent capital punishment in the case of the woman condemned to be stoned to death for adultery. We have none of Him saying any words or doing any action whatsoever in furtherence of the judicial killing of anyone.

On a purely non-spiritiual plane, I want my country to reside in the same class as the UK, France, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc in terms of human rights and respect for human dignity. Not China, Malawi, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea, Cuba etc. Guess what all the second listed nations have in common? With the US, of course.

They judicially kill people.

God bless.

Well said !!! I completely agree and couldn’t have explained it better.

God bless

 

[Ender]

We have at least one example of Jesus interceding to prevent capital punishment in the case of the woman condemned to be stoned to death for adultery.

First, he did not intercede nor did he oppose the application of the law which called for her execution. He said in effect “Go ahead … and whoever is without sin can start.” Second, the Church never refers to this incident in discussing capital punishment; she has never used it to explain her position because she does not understand it as you do. If you want to use scripture to make your point you should use the same passages the Church uses:

*If the Pope were to deny that the death penalty could be an exercise of retributive justice, he would be overthrowing the tradition of two millennia of Catholic thought, denying the teaching of several previous popes, and contradicting the teaching of Scripture (notably in Genesis 9:5-6 and Romans 13:1-4). *(Cardinal Dulles)

We have none of Him saying any words or doing any action whatsoever in furtherance of the judicial killing of anyone.

He does, however, recite several parables where people commit crimes and the king slays them in response and in no case does he imply this action is wrong. (Lk 19:26, Lk 20:16) And are we to just ignore Paul when he says: "Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death…" (Rom 1:29)?

Ender

 

[chipeto]

“Howsoever you treat the least of my brothers (such as murderers, drug traffickers, rapists, thieves etc in the modern world) you treat me”. Guess who said that?

One could very easily reduce your argument to the absurd. I think it’s a remarkable stretch to equate feeding the hungry with abolishing the DP.

We have at least one example of Jesus interceding to prevent capital punishment in the case of the woman condemned to be stoned to death for adultery. We have none of Him saying any words or doing any action whatsoever in furtherence of the judicial killing of anyone.

Well, you know what they say about absence of evidence…

On a purely non-spiritiual plane, I want my country to reside in the same class as the UK, France, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc in terms of human rights and respect for human dignity. Not China, Malawi, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea, Cuba etc. Guess what all the second listed nations have in common? With the US, of course.

And Japan. I have to say that I think this a particularly poor reason to abolish the DP. Should we do so because it’s popular with the in-crowd?

 

[tbcrawford]

From a Catholic Priest friend of mine

Pro-life limited to the life of the unborn is not only what defines us Christians. It is imitating Jesus and living His total gospel message that defines us as Catholic Christians. The danger is that we can focus too much only on the unborn (which we must do), hence missing the whole picture as Christians. In fact, real pro-life is valuing life as God’s gift in all persons (all ages, cultures, classes, nations and genders.) To be pro-life in a Catholic sense, is to be pro-Christ (the giver of life and life Himself)–Fr.CS,OP

 

[vera_dicere]

I’m against the DP, and obviously Pro-Life and Catholic, however, I accept the Church’s teaching, as mentioned by many posters.

However, I think that in this day and age, in this society, I don’t think its justified as there are non-fatal means to protect society. I think the DP is a racist system based on revenge, which also takes aim at those with special needs. There are way to many cases where there is significant doubt [recent Troy Davis] that show up front, we are unable to correctly administer the DP in a way that is just.

The only situation in which I could possibly, albeit slightly, support the DP woudl be post a nuclear war where the rule of law has collasped and stealing a loaf of bread from one man could mean death for his whole family. And I’m sure everyone and their puppy has seen the various post nuclear apocalypse movies to think of how the DP would kind of be needed.

 

[Ender]

I think the DP is a racist system based on revenge…

This perception is very possibly why JPII opposed the use of capital punishment - because people had lost sight of the true nature of punishment and could no longer distinguish retribution from revenge.

There are way to many cases where there is significant doubt [recent Troy Davis]

If this case shows anything it is the ease with which the public is manipulated. There is no doubt about his guilt, which is understandable given that the murder was committed in a fast food parking lot full of people. Even some of Davis’s friends identified him as the shooter.

Ender

 

[dudleysharp]

. ., .I I think the DP is a racist system based on revenge, which also takes aim at those with special needs. There are way to many cases where there is significant doubt [recent Troy Davis] that show up front, we are unable to correctly administer the DP . . .

You falsehoods do not make for a good position. I suspect you have simply been fooled by inaccurate anti death penalty material, which you blindly acepted and you failed to fact check it or challenge it in any way.

Support for the death penalty, both secular and Catholic, are based upon the sanction being just, deerved and proportional, applying justice or redress as the Church finds.

“The Death Penalty: Neither Hatred nor Revenge”
homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/20/the-death-penalty-neither-hatred-nor-revenge.aspx

Rebuttal to the death penalty racism claims
Dudley Sharp

1. “Death Penalty Sentencing: No Systemic Bias”
   prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/07/death-penalty-sentencing-no-systemic.html
2. “The Death Penalty and Racism The Times Have Changed”, Washington Post reporter Charles Lane, The American Interest, Nov/Dec 2010,
   the-american-interest.com/article.cfm?piece=901
3. SMOKE AND MIRRORS ON RACE AND THE DEATH PENALTY
   BY KENT SCHEIDEGGER
   cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DPenaltyRace.pdf
4. Race, Sentencing and the death penalty.
   prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html#C.Race

and

1. McCleskey V Kemp

Baldus’database and work in McCleskey was quite poor.

Read Federal District Court Judge Forrester’s rejection of Baldus’ database for McCleskey.

A more thorough review is provided by Joseph Katz, who did the methodological review of the Baldus database, which was rife with errors and problems. I have it, if you care to research.

In addition, SCOTUS totally misunderstood the math involved.

They ignorantly wrote: “defendants charged with killing white victims were 4.3 times as likely to receive a death sentence as defendants charged with killing blacks.”

Totally inaccurate.

It was by odds of 4.3 times, which can mean a differential as low as 2%, “t w o” percent, as opposed to the 330% differential represented by 4.3 times.

SCOTUS blew it big time on this.

These two articles, below, give a good explanation of the Baldus problems:

“The Math Behind Race, Crime and Sentencing Statistics”
By John Allen Paulos, Los Angeles Times, July 12, 1998
articles.latimes.com/1998/jul/12/opinion/op-2965

See “The Odds of Execution” within “How numbers are tricking you”, by Arnold Barnett, MIT Technology Review October, 1994
reocities.com/CapitolHill/4834/barnett.htm

 

[Corki]

I’m against the DP, and obviously Pro-Life and Catholic, however, I accept the Church’s teaching, as mentioned by many posters.

However, I think that in this day and age, in this society, I don’t think its justified as there are non-fatal means to protect society. I think the DP is a racist system based on revenge, which also takes aim at those with special needs. There are way to many cases where there is significant doubt [recent Troy Davis] that show up front, we are unable to correctly administer the DP in a way that is just.

The problem with this view is that IF the process of applying the death penalty did not affect minorities disproportionately and IF it was only used when there was irrefutable proof of guilt, would you be ok with it? Probably not. So using those reasons is only a way to deflect from the real issues and try to get a response based on emotion rather than justice.

 

[dudleysharp]

. . . There are way to many cases where there is significant doubt [recent Troy Davis] that show up front, we are unable to correctly administer the DP in a way that is just.

Those case are way fewer than you have, likely, been falsely led to believe.

Troy Davis & The Innocent Frauds of the anti death penalty lobby
Dudley Sharp

The Troy Davis campaign, like many before it (1), is a simple, blatant fraud, easily uncovered by the most basic of fact checking (1).

The case for Davis’ guilt is overwhelming, just as were his due process protections, which may have surpassed that of all but a few death row inmates.

The 2010 federal court innocence hearing found:

" . . . Mr. Davis is not innocent: the evidence produced at the hearing on the merits of Mr. Davis’s claim of actual innocence and a complete review of the record in this case does not require the reversal of the jury’s judgment that Troy Anthony Davis murdered City of Savannah Police Officer Mark Allen MacPhail on August 19, 1989." (2)

“Ultimately, while Mr. Davis’s new evidence casts some additional, minimal doubt on his conviction, it is largely smoke and mirrors.” (2)

“As a body, this evidence does not change the balance of proof that was presented at Mr.
Davis’s trial.”(2)

“The vast majority of the evidence at trial remains intact, and the new evidence is largely not credible or lacking in probative value.” (2)

None of this came as a surprise to anyone who actually followed the case, in contrast to the Save Troy Davis folks who were, willingly, duped.

1. a) “Troy Davis: Worldwide anti death penalty deceptions, rightly, failed”,
   homicidesurvivors.com/2011/09/25/troy-davis-worldwide-anti-death-penalty-deceptions-rightly-failed.aspx

b) "Troy Davis fairly convicted, not ‘railroaded’ "
savannahnow.com/column/2011-10-06/column-spencer-lawton-troy-davis-fairly-convicted-not-railroaded

1. “Innocence Hearing”, ordered by the US Supreme Court, US DISTRICT COURT, in the SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA, SAVANNAH DIV.,RE TROY ANTHONY DAVIS, CASE NO. CV409-130
   multimedia.savannahnow.com/media/pdfs/DavisRuling082410.pdf

 

[starshiptrooper]

“Howsoever you treat the least of my brothers (such as murderers, drug traffickers, rapists, thieves etc in the modern world) you treat me”. Guess who said that?

I will treat them justly. However, justice does not mean giving life to those who have forfeited their right to life. Remember that love and kindness should be given first and foremost to the victims, not the monsters who make more victims.

We have at least one example of Jesus interceding to prevent capital punishment in the case of the woman condemned to be stoned to death for adultery.

If there is ever a contest for the Bible passage that is most often misinterpreted, this one will win easily. When Jesus says, “Whoever among you is without sin, let him cast the first stone,” He is not telling us that the death penalty is immoral, but escaping from a trap and condemning hypocrisy. If Jesus had told the Pharisees, “Stone the woman,” they would have reported Him to the Romans. If Jesus had said, “Don’t stone her,” the Pharisees would point out that He was disobeying the Mosaic Law. Finally, the word Jesus uses for sin in His response is a Greek word which typically means sexual sin. Thus, He was exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who were they to condemn a woman who had committed the same sin they had?

We have none of Him saying any words or doing any action whatsoever in furtherence of the judicial killing of anyone.

Do you ever read the Old Testament? What about Ananias and Sapphira?

On a purely non-spiritiual plane, I want my country to reside in the same class as the UK, France, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc in terms of human rights and respect for human dignity.

So, if the people of the UK, France, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc ban the death penalty we should too. By the same reasoning, if the people of the UK, France, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc all decide to jump off a cliffs, we should too.