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CWBetts
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That is what I have been arguing
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lynx
Guest
Well then that’s tough to argue against. lets give it a shot though. No person can be as perfect as Jesus. And, perhaps Jesus would allow for the execution of dangerous criminals if it meant they could not harm others. OT God didn’t have a problem killing people, dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html , why would Jesus?
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CWBetts
Guest
Well I would argue that the punishments in the New Testament are more harsh. In the Old Testament, all that happened was destruction of the physical form. In the New Covenant, lack of repentance leads to eternal damnation. Jesus said not to fear him who only destroys the body, but to him who destroys body and soul. In truth, Jesus gave us victory over death. Given this, you may ask why I oppose the death penalty. I also believe that we should give as much time as possible for repentance. Killing the unrepentant is condemning them to eternal damnation. The unrepentant must be given more tome to come to the truth.
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lynx
Guest
True, but isn’t this what we’re talking about?
This is only true if Catholicism is based around forgiveness and compassion.
Why? People can’t technically destroy the soul. It is the sinners who do that to themselves. So why must justice wait for them to heal? If it is truly in God’s plan then they should have all the time the need to see the error of their actions and repent right?
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Ender
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There are any number of things wrong with this thinking, not least of which is that forgiveness does not eliminate the requirement of punishment. The sinner may be forgiven but he still owes reparation for the sin; forgiveness is not the same as expiation.
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lynx
Guest
LOL, I never said anything negates a punishment. I think that’s you making assumptions. It is interesting to know that you don’t think the catholic faith is based upon forgiveness and compassion.
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portarica
Guest
I think it comes down to this: if you want to believe that capital punishment is allowed by the church there is evidence for it, if you think capital punishment is unChristlike, there is evidence for that too. And the church holds both positions as being possible.
The secular debate about the issues revolves around whether it works or not, from a fiscal and crime prevention standpoint it doesn’t, but it does act as a salve for some people who think the death of another brings some sort of closure to a criminal event.
Peace
The secular debate about the issues revolves around whether it works or not, from a fiscal and crime prevention standpoint it doesn’t, but it does act as a salve for some people who think the death of another brings some sort of closure to a criminal event.
Peace
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ChristineMac
Guest
What is does work for is recidivism – a conviceted criminal punished by death cannot prey upon another person, be it prison guard, fellow inmate, or general citizen – most heinously, children.
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CWBetts
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This is a cop out. Neither you nor I have the right to say that someone does not have a right to live.
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portarica
Guest
That’s true if they are released, but I don’t believe that anybody is suggesting that the alternative to the death penalty is freedom in our communities.
I think it is about locking them up and throwing away the key.
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ChristineMac
Guest
It’s not a cop out.
It is your opionion that no man has a right to condemn another to death. My point all along has been we as a society must protect our innocent citizens from violence — back to my original statement - especially children from heinous ‘sex offenders’.
My opinion has nothing whatsoever to do with “vengence” or “restituion” or “closure” or any emotional ‘feelings’.
Once again, as a Catholic, I have the confidence in knowing that my opinion is a valid one within the teachings of my Holy Mother, the Church.
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ChristineMac
Guest
You are absolutely right. Unfortunately my original point has been lost along the way of this thread. I first jumped into the conversation when another poster suggested that those who felt the DP was an appropriate punishement for sex offenders, were ‘barbaric’.
I happen to be one of those people, and I was just defending my opinion based on the heinous crimes I have knowledge of due to my profession in a prosecutors office. Specifically based upon the, I would say, fact, that child sexual predators cannot be rehabilitated. (in a nutshell)
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CWBetts
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No human as the right to deprive another human being of life except in the gravest of circumstances. Just because you hate them is not good enough.
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ChristineMac
Guest
wow. Seriously? Do you even read through any response that you don’t immediately agree with? As for me, I have never mentioned hate. Again, emotions have nothing to do with it. The – forget it …you wouldn’t read it anyway …
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ChristineMac
Guest
I just realized I fell into my own criticism, not reading your response thoroughly,wow. Seriously? Do you even read through any response that you don’t immediately agree with? As for me, I have never mentioned hate. Again, emotions have nothing to do with it. The – forget it …you wouldn’t read it anyway …
You mentioned “gravest of circumstances” — my point exactly
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CWBetts
Guest
Emotion has everything to do with it. You cannot bring yourself to recognize that criminals, no matter how vile, are creations of God, who is pure good. By virtue of their existence they too, are good, as a being of pure good cannot create evil.wow. Seriously? Do you even read through any response that you don’t immediately agree with? As for me, I have never mentioned hate. Again, emotions have nothing to do with it. The – forget it …you wouldn’t read it anyway …
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Ender
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If forgiveness and compassion have nothing to do with punishment then they are irrelevant to the discussion. If they are not relevant, why did you bring them up? The topic is whether the death penalty is a just punishment for certain crimes; how exactly do forgiveness and compassion figure in?
Ender
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Ender
Guest
But the State has not just the right to do this but the obligation as well. It is true that as individuals we do not have the right to execute someone, but as individuals we don’t have the right to punish someone else in any way at all. That is the exclusive right and duty of the State and the Church has always recognized this.
“It is lawful to kill when fighting in a just war; when carrying out by order of the Supreme Authority a sentence of death in punishment of a crime; and, finally, in cases of necessary and lawful defense of one’s own life against an unjust aggressor.” (Catechism of Pius X)
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ChristineMac
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I believe with all my heart that every human being that has ever existed is a creation of God. Yes God is pure good, however, that does not make us "good, by virtue of our existence. He has given us free will and because of such, every person has been tainted by Original Sin … and everyone except Jesus and Mary, (after the age of reason), by actual sin.
No, we cannot ‘create’ evil, but we sure as heck can DO evil, some even give themselves over to the ‘Evil One’ and allow him to rule their lives.
Again, at the risk of beleaguring my original respons to you, there are people who do henious and, yes, evil things to other people. Most evil, IMHO, to children. I do not ‘hate’ them, I pity them. I do ‘hate’ what they do to children and believe we as a society must do whatever necessary to protect children from that sort of evil.
If the only way possible to prevent a child rapist from commiting another assault on a child is to put him/her to death, then we as a society MUST do so.
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ChristineMac
Guest
Once again, thank you Ender for your intelligent response.
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