Death penalty and purpose of punishment

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I don’t know what statements 2260 says or what 2266 says or what 2267 says. But if the same scholar says 2260, and 2266 and 2267, and if any one statement contradicts the others, I would ignore all of them, because this scholar is inconsistent.
Well I do know what those sections say and they are not consistent. Read them and then try to defend their consistency; explain how to balance 2260 - which says the life of the murderer is forfeit - with 2267, which says he should not be executed. Engage the ideas presented. Debating without knowing what is being discussed is not all that useful.
And finally, to whom has God given the right to execute, or decapitate, or stone to death a man? Is it to the Pope, President of United States, or Prime Minister of Italy, or President of Iran?
The Church teaches that that right has been granted to governments, so, yes, the Pope, the President, and the Prime Minister all have that authority.

“It is lawful to kill when … carrying out by order of the Supreme Authority a sentence of death in punishment of a crime; …” (Catechism of Pius X)

Ender
 
Church teaching says:

PART 3, SECTION 2, CHAPTER 2, ARTICLE 5, SUBSECTION 1, HEADING 2

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.” 68

CITED TEXT:

John Paul II, Evangelium vitae 56

It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.

In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: “If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person”.[48]

My thoughts: if we have the technology to lock someone up so that they cannot harm anyone again, then that is what we should do. that way the offender may come to know Jesus and their behavior be changed. If we are to be inline with church teaching then this is how we should handle the situation.
 
pnewton;7190394I believe there is a problem with approaching any single teaching of the Church in isolation. Rather the foundation must first be laid before one constructs the roof. In this case said:
Absolutely. My point exactly. This newest Catechism, particulary 2267, really is an island unto itself, with erros and contradicitons galore, which would not have occured with a full and respectful review of biblical, theological, traditonal and rational Church teachings of nearly 2000 years. It is a mystery why this was allowed to happen.
 
Church teaching says: … 2267 … EV 56
There is no dispute about what 2267/EV 56 say. The problem is that this is not all that the Church has said on the subject and it really is necessary to deal with the entirety of Church teaching and not limit the debate to the prudential opinion of JPII.
In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: “If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person”.[48]
It is interesting that the Vatican’s version of this passage reads: *"public authority **should *limit itself …"
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM
My thoughts: if we have the technology to lock someone up so that they cannot harm anyone again, then that is what we should do. that way the offender may come to know Jesus and their behavior be changed. If we are to be inline with church teaching then this is how we should handle the situation.
And what are we to make of 2260’s citation of Gen 9:6 which states that murderers are to be executed? Is that not also Church teaching?

Ender
 
There is no dispute about what 2267/EV 56 say. The problem is that this is not all that the Church has said on the subject and it really is necessary to deal with the entirety of Church teaching and not limit the debate to the prudential opinion of JPII.
It is interesting that the Vatican’s version of this passage reads: *“public authority **should ***limit itself …”
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM

And what are we to make of 2260’s citation of Gen 9:6 which states that murderers are to be executed? Is that not also Church teaching?

Ender
In the time of Noah (Gen 9:6) they didn’t have “jails” and the technology we have today. So I agree that 2260 says something very different that 2267. I think 2267 is a result of today’s standard of living and the use of present day systems and facilities to keep the wicked from harming society.

I cringe at the costs to maintain these facilities and keep these people from harming society, but I suppose that is the cost of progress. Things were much simpler in Noah’s day without doubt.
 
In the time of Noah (Gen 9:6) they didn’t have “jails” and the technology we have today. So I agree that 2260 says something very different that 2267. I think 2267 is a result of today’s standard of living and the use of present day systems and facilities to keep the wicked from harming society.
If the Church no longer believes in what Gen 9:6 says then why would they include it? In fact, what Genesis is talking about has nothing to do with prisons but with the nature of human life, why it is sacred, and what the punishment is to be for someone who commits murder. That passage has nothing to do with protecting society and, as 2260 itself says, its message is valid for all time. Its meaning has nothing to do with time, place, or the nature of a country’s penal system.

Ender
 
If the Church no longer believes in what Gen 9:6 says then why would they include it? In fact, what Genesis is talking about has nothing to do with prisons but with the nature of human life, why it is sacred, and what the punishment is to be for someone who commits murder. That passage has nothing to do with protecting society and, as 2260 itself says, its message is valid for all time. Its meaning has nothing to do with time, place, or the nature of a country’s penal system.

Ender
It is clear that Gen 9:5-6 expresses the sacredness of life and that one committing murder should have their blood shed. This verse is used to support the death penalty. I don’t think the church is denying 2260 but offering another option if the means exist.

Are we being disobedient by locking someone up for life rather than putting them to death?
 
It is clear that Gen 9:5-6 expresses the sacredness of life and that one committing murder should have their blood shed. This verse is used to support the death penalty. I don’t think the church is denying 2260 but offering another option if the means exist.
Given the meaning of the passage, what other option is there? It is precisely because life of the victim was sacred that the life of the murderer is forfeit. Locking up the killer does not change the sacredness of the victim’s life and does not satisfy the requirement laid out in Genesis.
Are we being disobedient by locking someone up for life rather than putting them to death?
Although there are always exceptions, I think in general the answer here is yes. We are not told to incapacitate killers, there is nothing in the command that pertains to society as a whole. The directive is really about the victim and the truly heinous nature of the crime, something we have completely lost sight of.

Ender
 
I don’t believe that’s what Dudley means at all. The Catechism contains, in 2267, a prudential opinion that should never have been included. The problem is not with what the Church teaches but with what was put into the Catechism. In this case, those things are not the same.
And this too is an opinion. My opinion is that which we were given with the Catechism that it is** the** sure norm of Catholic teaching.
 
Let it be understood that by “the Catechism” you mean the teaching of the Catholic Church has problems. I believe there is a problem with approaching any single teaching of the Church in isolation. Rather the foundation must first be laid before one constructs the roof.
pnewton:

I am curious about your response.

As you well know, my context has aways been biblical, theological, traditonal and rational teachings of the Church for 2000 years, as I have consistantly stated throughout this subject blog and as you have often responded to.

Are you intentionally trying to misrepresent my position and the context within which it is given?
 
And this too is an opinion.
Perhaps, but I am surely not alone in holding it as indeed it appears to be the position of Benedict XVI, the USCCB, and Cardinal Dulles.
My opinion is that which we were given with the Catechism that it is** the** sure norm of Catholic teaching.
If it is your opinion that Church Catechisms are sure norms of Catholic teaching then how do you reconcile that claim with the knowledge that the position laid out in the current volume does not conform with the positions laid out in all (?) of the earlier ones. How is it that this one is right and the others were wrong, and if the others were wrong how can we be sure that this one isn’t wrong as well? You can’t claim that Catechisms are right simply because they are Catechisms and at the same time hold that earlier Catechisms were wrong.

Ender
 
Let’s simplify this.

Roman Catholic Church and you are only complicating simple teachings of Christ

I am expounding on what is taught by the Roman Catholic Church; her position is my position.

Roman Catholic Church has no position. They are wavering between YES and NO. They state contradicting statements. CCC should never be treated like a Bible.
You are also wavering with the Church and its CCC.

If you reject what she teaches then just say so and present your position for what it is: your own.

At least I have a position. You and your Church have no position at all.

Among other things, the main difference between our perspectives is that mine accords with what the Church teaches and yours does not.

Your Church is teaching nothing. You and your Church are sitting on the fence.

You may still hold that yours is the correct interpretation but you cannot hold that it is what your Church teaches.
Why should I or anybody care what the Church teaches if they themselves do not know which is right and which is wrong?

Tony
 
Here is what the Current Pope had to say with regard to comparing lets say abortion to the death penalty and whether Catholics can disagree with the Popes opinion on the death penalty. The bottom line is that the 2 are NOT comparable. I, as a Catholic who is aware that the Church has suppported the death penalty for CENTURIES, may in good conscience, today, now, support it, urge it as a proportional punishment, and vote for candidates who support it…and thats different from the abortion question
QUOTE
"3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia"

Argue all you want… but thats the bottom line for current Catholics. The death penalty is permissible.
Here’s the entire article the quote comes from
priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm
 
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frantony:
Roman Catholic Church and you are only complicating simple teachings of Christ
What flavor of Catholic are you? Eastern? Greek? Free Range?
Roman Catholic Church has no position.
This is simply wrong. The position of the Church remains what it has been for 2000 years: the State has the moral authority to execute criminals.
They are wavering between YES and NO. They state contradicting statements.
I’ll concede that there are contradictory statements within the current Catechism.
CCC should never be treated like a Bible.
I guess that’s so, but when it comes to interpreting Bible passages I defer to the Church … and the Catechism.
You are also wavering with the Church and its CCC.
Au contraire. I have been quite steadfast in my position. Have you been reading this forum?
Why should I or anybody care what the Church teaches if they themselves do not know which is right and which is wrong?
How are we to know what is right or wrong? If I believe something is right which the Church says is wrong - or vice versa - how do I choose? Does something become right or wrong simply because I believe it to be so?

Ender
 
Originally Posted by frantony
Roman Catholic Church and you are only complicating simple teachings of Christ
What flavor of Catholic are you? Eastern? Greek? Free Range?
Syrian; Does it matter?

Quote:
Roman Catholic Church has no position.
This is simply wrong. The position of the Church remains what it has been for 2000 years: the State has the moral authority to execute criminals.
Who is the state?
According to the Roman Catholic Church, was it O.K for Nazis to kill Jews in Germany when Nazis were ruling Germany?

Quote:
They are wavering between YES and NO. They state contradicting statements.
I’ll concede that there are contradictory statements within the current Catechism.
Thank you.

Quote:
CCC should never be treated like a Bible.
I guess that’s so, but when it comes to interpreting Bible passages I defer to the Church … and the Catechism.
The Catholic Church’s interpretations of the Bible passages only makes them more vague, and confusing because the interpretations contradict with one another.

Quote:
You are also wavering with the Church and its CCC.
Au contraire. I have been quite steadfast in my position. Have you been reading this forum?
You are steadfast in your position relative to the Catholic Church and CCC.
But because the Catholic Church is not consistent or fixed in their position, you are also wavering with them.

Quote:
Why should I or anybody care what the Church teaches if they themselves do not know which is right and which is wrong?
How are we to know what is right or wrong? If I believe something is right which the Church says is wrong - or vice versa - how do I choose? Does something become right or wrong simply because I believe it to be so?

Nobody (including Roman Catholic Church) should make statements that they are not sure of, especially when they contradict each other, and every body should be wary of people who don’t have value for their words or statements.
 
According to the Roman Catholic Church, was it O.K for Nazis to kill Jews in Germany when Nazis were ruling Germany?
To say that someone has authority is not the same as saying that authority can’t be abused. Christ himself recognized that Pilate had the authority to have him executed but that clearly didn’t make it acceptable.
The Catholic Church’s interpretations of the Bible passages only makes them more vague, and confusing because the interpretations contradict with one another.
I reject this claim; if you believe it to be true then give examples. What would your solution be: the Protestant approach where each individual is free to interpret the Bible as he chooses?
You are steadfast in your position relative to the Catholic Church and CCC. But because the Catholic Church is not consistent or fixed in their position, you are also wavering with them.
My position is that of the Church; she has taught the same thing about capital punishment from the beginning. I will tell you the same thing I have told others: the current prudential opinion expressed in 2267 does not rise to the level of Church teaching. It is not doctrine.
Nobody (including Roman Catholic Church) should make statements that they are not sure of…
You should heed your own advice. You have made a number of claims but not one of them has been supported by any evidence.

Ender
 
“Whoever sheds the blood (murders) of man, by man shall his blood be shed (execution).” How is this not a directive? Is this not simply saying that “Whoever murders shall be executed”? It may be reasonable to claim this passage no longer applies but its meaning is rather obvious.
I disagree.

Let’s start with the observation that Gen. 9:6 is one of the seven laws of Noah that all people are required to keep. (The other six are: No idolatry, no theft, no sexual immorality, no blasphemy, no eating of flesh taken from live animals/that has blood in it, and the requirement to have just laws.)

Note that this is the only law to mention murder. Therefore, there are two possible directives in that passage:
  1. Thou shalt not kill. (That is, the point of saying that is to scare people into never committing murder by telling them how grave it is in the eyes of God.)
  2. Thou shalt execute killers. (That is, the point of saying that is to highlight the obligation of others to punish murderers.)
I agree that the first is a directive. But the second? This raises a few questions:
  1. What if we don’t know for sure who the killer is? If we have to execute somebody to avoid being guilty of breaking this directive, there’s a very real risk of becoming murderers ourselves by shedding innocent blood – surely a far greater travesty! As 2261 says, immediately afterwards: "Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: “Do not slay the innocent and the righteous.” The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere. " It would clearly be in violation of the first directive to execute an innocent person, but how often in the real world can we be absolutely certain that the person is not innocent? A few seconds with Google turned up this list. Clearly we are in a dilemma – in general we can’t be so certain who the guilty person is as to be willing to run the risk of breaking the first directive, but not executing anyone means we are breaking the second. It seems any murder condemns everybody.
  2. Who is guilty of the sin if nobody is executed? Is the entire society guilty? Only those in power? What about those who elected them? What if we live in a secular society without a death penalty – are we obliged to go undercover as prison workers (or commit a crime so that we can be placed in the same prison) just so we can execute the murderer (and thereby be sentenced to life in prison ourselves) in order to cleanse ourselves of this sin?
Keeping a commandment like “Thou shalt not kill” is not too difficult, and if you break it then it is clear that God would know who to hold accountable. Keeping a commandment like “Thou shalt kill murderers” is highly problematic in a whole range of circumstances that most people have absolutely no control over. If you don’t execute anyone after a murder is committed, then according to the second directive you have broken God’s law. But if you do execute someone who was not guilty, you have not only broken God’s law but now others have to execute you in order to avoid breaking God’s law as well – and they are still guilty of breaking the law in the first instance because the wrong person was executed while the killer is still free!
That there have always been exceptions to the directive doesn’t make it any less a directive. There are other considerations and each case is determined uniquely, nonetheless, the general prescription holds: murderers are to be executed.
On the contrary, as soon as you admit that not every murder requires the murderer to be executed, the inconsistency vanishes – 2267 is merely giving guidance on when execution is appropriate and when it is not, and there’s nothing wrong with updating that guidance over time as circumstances change.

But the question arises: where does 2260 say that there can be exceptions? If you believe that it embodies the second directive I listed above, then “its meaning is rather obvious” – there is no mention of an exception to the directive. It doesn’t say “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, unless other considerations determine otherwise.”
 
Point to where the Church refers to these passages in this context and we can consider them. It is the Church, not me, who has singled out Gen 9:6 and I will point out again that your examples are from Mosaic Law while Gen 9:6 is something altogether different.
That’s fine, I think it’s rather obvious the Church doesn’t require us to execute rape victims who fail to cry out loudly enough during the attack in spite of what the Old Testament says. My point was that if the Church feels unconstrained by interpreting those passages as an obligation on Christians, I see no reason why it shouldn’t feel the same way about interpreting Gen. 9:6 in a way that only considers the first directive I highlighted (“Thou shalt not kill”) while not obliging us to follow the second (“Thou shalt execute murderers”).
Show me a Church document that interprets this incident as you do, but if you can’t then I see no reason to accept your personal interpretation of this passage.
For someone who feels free to ignore parts of the Catechism based on what you perceive as conflicts with your interpretation of other parts, I find it odd that you would now insist on Church documents in support of my interpretation of the Bible.

But the events described are easy enough to understand: the scribes and the Pharisees quoted the directive of Dt. 22:22 that people caught in the act of adultery “must be put to death” – there is no ambiguity in there; there is at least as direct a statement of obligation in Dt. 22:22 as there is in Gen. 9:6, and since the protagonists were all Jews they were bound by that law. Yet Jesus responded by saying that he who is without sin should cast the first stone, and they all left. Are you suggesting that Jesus caused them to sin by tricking them into not fulfilling their oglibations to stone the woman?
It is not merely 2260 with which 2267 disagrees but with everything the Church has ever written on the subject. There is no historical support for 2267; it is not the development of doctrine, it is solely the prudential opinion of JPII. It has no support from Church teaching.
You deny the Pope’s right to determine Catholic teaching? You deny the modern Church the right to interpret scripture in a modern context?

Moreover, you do so on the basis that you believe the modern teaching is inconsistent with past teaching despite accepting that past teaching never required an execution for every murder? If the Church has never required an execution for every murder, how can a new directive on when execution is appropriate and when it is not be inconsistent?

2267 merely says that in the modern world the cases where execution is necessary to defend and protect people’s safety are very rare, if not practically nonexistent. In the past that was not so, so even if 2267 had been in force for the last 2,00 years, would history be any different? It’s qualified by saying “If … nonleathal means are sufficient”. If they are not – and for much of the past 2,000 years, they probably were not – then execution is appropriate: provided, of course, “the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined”, lest you be guilty of exactly the same crime by wrongfully executing an innocent person.

BTW, I asked my priest about this on the weekend. You may want to do the same. The Catechism is the official and definitive Church teaching, and Catholics do not get to pick and choose which bits of the Catechism they accept and which bits they do not. I certainly assume the Church knows better than I do what the historical interpretations were and wouldn’t put obviously contradictory clauses several paragraphs apart. I feel it far more likely that your interpretation of 2260 and historic Church teaching as requiring us to execute murderers is in error.
 
It is interesting that the Vatican’s version of this passage reads: *“public authority **should ***limit itself …”
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM
As I said before, the Vatican has two versions, and the above seems to be the English translation of the provisional French reference text of the 1992 version.

The other version, which seems to be the English translation of the later, definitive Latin text, says: “authority will limit itself to such means

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

The definitive Latin text reads: “Si autem instrumenta incruenta sufficiunt ad personarum securitatem ab aggressore defendendam atque protegendam, auctoritas his solummodo utatur instrumentis, utpote quae melius respondeant concretis boni communis condicionibus et sint dignitati personae humanae magis consentanea.”

(cf. “If, however, nonlethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.”)

Now, I don’t speak Latin, but with the help of online translators and dictionaries I get the following for the part up to the first comma: “If, however, bloodless means are sufficient to defend and protect personal safety from the aggressor,”.

“auctoritas his solummodo utatur instrumentis”, which is the clause in question, renders as:

“right to authorise/sanction; decree, order; authority, influence…”
“these”
“only/alone”
“use, make use of”
“means”

“authorities make use of these means alone”? “authorise the use of these means alone”?

Whatever the exact translation is, it certainly seems consistent with the later English translation.
 
“If, however, nonlethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor…”
The church used to especially emphasize that one of the prime purposes of the execution is to PROPORTIONALLY respond to the taking of innocent human life. It was certainly not taught that one of the prime reasons to carry out an execution was because THE GUY couldnt threaten people in his community again. Retributive justice was taught, urged, explained. Deterrence was for OTHERS similarily situated , not specifically for THE BAD GUY, MR. X.
In that language above, are they talking about MR X,… or is “the aggressor” a generic thing???
Where they got this new emphasis, I have NO idea. I’ll put it like this—those who made this mess as reflected in the discussion of language mentioned in the last 40 pages here cant be called “Great Communicators.”
 
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