Death penalty and purpose of punishment

[starshiptrooper]

Can you compress your thoughts into something alot shorter?

Power does not just mean might, it also means having authority. The latter sense of power is used in John 19:9-11.

There are Catholics still today who believe that the Church had the Power and right to torture and to burn heretics - Which is truly sad.

I believe the Church did have the authority to do this.

My question to starshiptrooper is: If the Roman Church reinstituted the burning of heretics, would you support them?

We live in a slightly different society than the 13th century. The herectic of the Middle Ages was closer to the modern terrorist. They caused trouble and discord, they often tried to overthrow lawful governments, they believed in radical and dangerous ideas, and they were immoral people. I have no problem with torturing and shooting terrorists. Does that answer your irrelevant question?

Who has authority to kill another man? the pope, or Hitler, or President of Iran? or President of the United States? I think it is not me but you who are confused.

A government performing its God-given responsibilities and the ordinary citizen acting in self-defense both have the right to kill someone.

If you really think that nobody can lawfully kill another person, then you are confused.

 

[frantony]

Can you compress your thoughts into something alot shorter?
No. Because, then my answers will be as empty as yours.

Power does not just mean might, it also means having authority. The latter sense of power is used in John 19:9-11.

Let me try to fill in your emptiness for you. But you have to read the passage fully (including the underlined words), and answer my questions underneath to realise what Jesus meant.

John 19: 9 and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer.
10 “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

1. 
   *]**What “sin” is Jesus referring to?
   *]What is the "greater sin " Jesus is referring to?
   *]If what Pilate was doing was a sin, and if handing over Jesus was a greater sin, did both of them have the authority and power to do what they did? They had the power, like Hitler had the power to kill Jews and terrorists have power to kill innocent people, but they do not have any authority. **
   
   I believe the Church did have the authority to do this.
   
   Who do you believe in? The Pope, or Bishop of Canterbury, John Smith, or Obama, or Ayatollah Khomeni?
   
   We live in a slightly different society than the 13th century.
   
   Did God change the Ten commandments after the 13th century? What Bible do you read?
   
   The herectic of the Middle Ages was closer to the modern terrorist. They caused trouble and discord, they often tried to overthrow lawful governments, they believed in radical and dangerous ideas, and they were immoral people. I have no problem with torturing and shooting terrorists. Does that answer your irrelevant question?
   
   How are you different from the terrorist? Terrorists believe that they have the authority to kill you, and you believe you have the authority to kill them. I think both of you deserve to die, and should tortuture and shoot each other, so that the rest of us peace-loving people can live in peace. I now understand why you feel my question is irrelevant.
   
   If you really think that nobody can lawfully kill another person, then you are confused.
   Most terrorists become terrorists because they are drugged and brain-washed into believing that it is O.K to kill others. Are you one like them, or were you born with a low I.Q?
   
   A government performing its God-given responsibilities and the ordinary citizen acting in self-defense both have the right to kill someone.
   A sin is a sin whether it is done by a king, or a thief, or a soldier.
   While saving your own life or another’s if you accidentally (please note the underlined word ) kill another, it is surely unfortunate and you should be sorry for what you did, but you are not guilty of the killing. But if you intentionally killed someone (freind, enemy, terrorist or child) you will be guilty of murder.
   Even if a king steals, he is committing a sin. It does not matter whether you are a king or a scavenger, if you lie, you are a liar, if you steal, you are a thief, and if you talk nonsense, you are a fool.

 

[starshiptrooper]

I read the passage, now to answer your first question.

The sin was Pilate treating the Just Man unjustly.

Now for the second question:

The greater sin Jesus was referring to is the Pharisees lying about Him and handing Him over to Pilate.

As for your third question, Jesus told Pilate that the authority was given to him from above. Even if Pilate chooses to misuse his authority and crucify Jesus, this does not change the fact that the authority was a sacred responsibilty entrusted to him.

Did God change the Ten commandments after the 13th century? What Bible do you read?

No, the circumstances of the sin of heresy changed between the 13th century and now. As I pointed out, to be a heretic in the Middle Ages was rather like being a terrorist today. Now, we live in a diverse society, with no religion recognized by the state. A totally different situation!

How are you different from the terrorist? Terrorists believe that they have the authority to kill you, and you believe you have the authority to kill them. I think both of you deserve to die, and should tortuture and shoot each other, so that the rest of us peace-loving people can live in peace. I now understand why you feel my question is irrelevant.

Pacifist.

sin is a sin whether it is done by a king, or a thief, or a soldier.
While saving your own life or another’s if you accidentally (please note the underlined word ) kill another, it is surely unfortunate and you should be sorry for what you did, but you are not guilty of the killing. But if you intentionally killed someone (freind, enemy, terrorist or child) you will be guilty of murder.

Murderer is the unlawful killing of somebody, intentionally killing someone in self-defense and executing a criminal are both lawful and therefore are not murder legally speaking. An execution and a murder are not morally equivalent either. If you believe they are, then you should also believe the imprisoning someone is like a kidnapping, and fining someone is the equivalent of theft and a policeman chasing after a speeder is as bad as the speeder.

Most terrorists become terrorists because they are drugged and brain-washed into believing that it is O.K to kill others. Are you one like them, or were you born with a low I.Q? …if you talk nonsense, you are a fool.

I understand what you are saying, and I’m sorry you feel that way about me. However, I’m simply trying to defend the moral principles I believe in.

 

[lelhajj]

so many people have been found guilty when in reality they were innocent and they have received the death penalty. I think we are fast to judge and to order punishment and revenge. Jesus never said to take revenge. He spoke of compassion, of humility, of love even towards the enemies. If we remember His words, we should not be advocates of revenge and punishment. Let God decide and let Him do His Almighty Will. Let us keep in mind a saying that comes to my mind; by the same stick we measure, we are going to be measure (sorry for the translation, but, it is something like this, maybe somebody can help me with the translation). Revenge and hate will never lead to anything good. Besides that, what message are we giving to our young generation?

 

[frantony]

I read the passage, now to answer your first question.

Before Christ had died, priesthood was only for the Levites, and scripture and prophesies could be interpreted only by them. But it is not so any more, because

After Jesus died on the cross for us, suddenly, the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn down the middle. 46 Then Jesus shouted, “Father, I entrust my spirit into your hands!” And with those words he breathed his last.
The Jewish people had a curtain that surrounded the holy of the holiest place in their temple. In this room, God’s spirit dwelled and no one was allowed to enter it. Only the highest of all priests. When Jesus died on the cross, as he breathed his last breath and gave up his spirit, the veil, the curtain that surrounded this room & separated the people from entering that room was suddenly & mysteriously ripped into two.
This was done by God, and it was to signify that no longer are his people separate from him.

Because of Jesus death and what he did for us; he cleansed us, redeemed us and we are able to enter Gods presence any time we so desire. We are able to be so close to him that we are able to be one in him.
By the shedding of his blood on the great day of the crucifixion. Jesus was able to remove all walls, that separates us from our heavenly father. This is one of the many gifts that come from him dying for us on the cross. Let’s not waste it but embrace it daily.

So do not hold yourself back, let no one keep you away from the Bible. You are as much a priest as a pope or a bishop or a Jew or a Levite. Let no-one forbid you to read the Bible.

For your convenience, I shall copy- paste it again below.

John 19: 9 and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer.
10 “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

Note that the underlined word is “power” and not authority. Pilate and the Pharisees were given POWER from above to do what they did, but not the Authority. That is why they were guilty of sin.
I think that you are the one who is confused because you think power or might and authority are the same.If you do something that you have authority to do, you will not be guilty of any sin. But if you using your power do something you are not authorised to do, you are committing a sin.

Under the Old Covenant (before Jesus ), God allowed the Israelites to kill other humans under very special circumstances such as punishment for certain sins, for example, murder (Exodus 21:12-14, Leviticus 24:17, 21), adultery etc.

But after Jesus died on the cross, even non-Jews and non Levites (including Muslims and Hindoos and terrorists and your other enemies) are precious to the Lord.
Killing any of them deliberately or even keeping a grudge against them is a sin.
If you are a Christian, and are following Christ, you are to follow Jesus Christ’s teachings. which is

Love even your enemy,
Luke 6:27-36: [27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you.

(1John 3:15,.“Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”

( Matthew 5:21-26): "You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

 

[frantony]

Murderer is the unlawful killing of somebody, intentionally killing someone in self-defense and executing a criminal are both lawful and therefore are not murder legally speaking. An execution and a murder are not morally equivalent either. If you believe they are, then you should also believe the imprisoning someone is like a kidnapping, and fining someone is the equivalent of theft and a policeman chasing after a speeder is as bad as the speeder.

The intention of punishing somebody should not be revenge, but love and a desire to correct a sinner and make him perfect and better. A child may be punished if he does not obey his parents instruction not to play in the streets; but not by chopping off his legs.
Similarly, by killing a murderer, we are denying him a chance to repent and lead a better and fruitful life. Most saints and great men have become so by learning from their mistakes. There are so many instances where murderers have repented and led very fruitful lives afterwards.

I understand what you are saying, and I’m sorry you feel that way about me. However, I’m simply trying to defend the moral principles I believe in.

I now know that your intentions are to do good and bring justice and peace in this world.
But evil begets EVIL. You should not fight evil with more evil. That will result in a more evil world, which is what Satan wants. Satan wants everyman to fight with eachother and kill each other. He cannot kill us. But he can tempt us to kill each other.

Remember that Jesus saved Mary Magdeline from death, though according to the Biblical law then, she deserved to be stoned to death. She later repented and led a saintly life, and became a sincere and passionate follower of Jesus.
When Jesus’ followers chopped off a ear of a soldier who came to arrest Jesus, Jesus rebuked them for their violence and healed the soldier’s ear.
Laws in the Kingdom of God are different from those on earth. Christians should try first to be legal citizen of Jesus Christ’s Kingdom and give only second preference to becoming respectable, acceptable or legal in this world.

 

[frantony]

a policeman chasing after a speeder is as bad as the speeder.

In the U.K, policemen are forbidden to do a car chase to catch a criminal; because they found that the Collateral damages of the chase (loss of life and limbs, damage to public and private property, etc.) in most cases exceed that of the original crime.

 

[starshiptrooper]

So do not hold yourself back, let no one keep you away from the Bible. You are as much a priest as a pope or a bishop or a Jew or a Levite. Let no-one forbid you to read the Bible.

“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.” (Genesis 9:6)

Note that the underlined word is “power” and not authority. Pilate and the Pharisees were given POWER from above to do what they did, but not the Authority. That is why they were guilty of sin.
I think that you are the one who is confused because you think power or might and authority are the same.

Power can also mean authority. Look it up in the dictionary. Perhaps somebody with an understanding of the original language used to write the Gospel of John could help us settle this? However, the state does have the authority to punish criminals, even to the point of death. (Romans 13: 3-4)

Your pacifist position on killing does not align with Catholic teaching.

In the CCC #2263-2264 we learn that killing in self-defense is legitimate. In #2265 we learn that legitimate defense is not only right but sometimes a grave duty. In other words, it sometimes is a grave duty to kill another person.

As for your Bible verses, Christ was speaking to an audience of individuals. The individual and the government both have different duties and rights.

 

[Ender]

Power can also mean authority. Look it up in the dictionary. Perhaps somebody with an understanding of the original language used to write the Gospel of John could help us settle this? However, the state does have the authority to punish criminals, even to the point of death. (Romans 13: 3-4)

The Church has always supported the State’s moral right to execute criminals in appropriate circumstances. It is simply undeniable that the Church teaches that the State is authorized by God. The fact that the State is authorized the apply capital punishment where appropriate of course doesn’t meant that they have a God given right to use it inappropriately any more than the fact that we have a right to kill in self defense means that we have a right to kill where it is not necessary. That we have been given certain authority certainly doesn’t mean we are free to abuse it.

And thus that which is lawful to God is lawful for His ministers when they act by His mandate. It is evident that God who is the Author of laws, has every right to inflict death on account of sin. For “the wages of sin is death.”[9] Neither does His minister sin in inflicting that punishment. The sense, therefore, of “Thou shalt not kill” is that one shall not kill by one’s own authority. (Catechism of Aquinas)

*“Since the agent of authority is but a sword in the hand, and is not responsible for the killing, it is in no way contrary to the commandment, Thou shalt not kill” to wage war at God’s bidding, or for the representatives of the State’s authority to put criminals to death, according to law or the rule of rational justice.” *(Augustine, City of God)

Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime. (CCC 2266)

*“It is lawful to kill when fighting in a just war; when carrying out by order of the Supreme Authority a sentence of death in punishment of a crime; and, finally, in cases of necessary and lawful defense of one’s own life against an unjust aggressor.” *(Catechism of Pius X)

Ender

 

[starshiptrooper]

Obviously, I’ve got to learn to better clarify the points I make. My point in citing in John 19:9-11 was that Jesus affirms the right of the state to execute criminals for serious crimes, not that the state has the right to abuse this power. As I said myself, Pilate’s sin was treating the Just Man unjustly.

 

[frantony]

“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.” (Genesis 9:6).

*What you have quoted above is not a commandment to man to follow.
God is stating a fact. Both the first man who shed blood and the second man who shed blood to avenge the shedding of blood by first man, are shedders of blood and will be subject to God’s punishment for shedding man’s blood.

Already we now have above two men shedding man’s blood. Now we will need a third man to shed the blood of the second man who shed man’s blood. Finally we will have everybody shedding another’man’s blood. This is why Jesus came and asked man to show the other cheek if you get hit on one. *

Power can also mean authority. Look it up in the dictionary. Perhaps somebody with an understanding of the original language used to write the Gospel of John could help us settle this? However, the state does have the authority to punish criminals, even to the point of death. (Romans 13: 3-4).

Power can also mean electricity, and and so many other things in a dictionary, or an encyclopedia or Wikipidea.
But “power” referenced above does not mean authority, because, If you do something that you have authority to do, you will not be guilty of any sin.
But Jesus clearly said that Pilate was guilty, and the Pharisees were more guilty. So obviously, they had only “Power” to sentence Jesus to death, but not the authority.

Your pacifist position on killing does not align with Catholic teaching.
And the Catholic teaching does not align with Jesus Christ’s teaching.

In the CCC #2263-2264 we learn that killing in self-defense is legitimate. In #2265 we learn that legitimate defense is not only right but sometimes a grave duty. In other words, it sometimes is a grave duty to kill another person.

*But not as a punishment for murder, or blasphemy, or adultery, as the Pharisees and Catholic church professes.
The Jews or Romans did not kill Jesus, and catholic church did not kill “heretics” in self defence. *

As for your Bible verses, Christ was speaking to an audience of individuals. The individual and the government both have different duties and rights.
Jesus’words were for the whole mankind. Even His words spoken to his mother, or brothers, of Peter, or a group of followers are teachings for the whole Church or body of Christians.

 

[pnewton]

And the Catholic teaching does not align with Jesus Christ’s teaching.

This statement give a false dichotomy between what God said as man and what God says through man. God is the same. He can not reveal one truth while he was on Earth and then guide His Church into a different truth. Rather it is far more likely that our own opinion is mistaken about what Jesus taught rather than God is being confused.

 

[frantony]

The Church has always supported the State’s moral right to execute criminals in appropriate circumstances. It is simply undeniable that the Church teaches that the State is authorized by God.

Who is the State? In David’s case, he was anointed as King of the Jews by Prophet Samuel, the Priest.
Who anointed the Roman emperor, and gave him POWER or RIGHT or AUTHORITY to rule the Jews, or sentence Jesus to death? Was it by a Priest of the Lord, or the Lord Himself, or the might of the Sword?
If the Romans had the authority to Rule the Jews, why did God promise them a Saviour to save them from the Roman yoke?
By your statements above, you are putting Catholic Church in a more precarious position from where they will have to answer more difficult to answer questions.

The fact that the State is authorized the apply capital punishment where appropriate of course doesn’t meant that they have a God given right to use it inappropriately any more than the fact that we have a right to kill in self defense means that we have a right to kill where it is not necessary. That we have been given certain authority certainly doesn’t mean we are free to abuse it.
*
Who can decide whether Pilate used or abused his power when he sentenced Jesus to death?
Is it a Judge, or Priest?*

And thus that which is lawful to God is lawful for His ministers when they act by His mandate. It is evident that God who is the Author of laws, has every right to inflict death on account of sin. For “the wages of sin is death.”[9] Neither does His minister sin in inflicting that punishment. The sense, therefore, of “Thou shalt not kill” is that one shall not kill by one’s own authority. (Catechism of Aquinas)

*“Since the agent of authority is but a sword in the hand, and is not responsible for the killing, it is in no way contrary to the commandment, Thou shalt not kill” to wage war at God’s bidding, or for the representatives of the State’s authority to put criminals to death, according to law or the rule of rational justice.” *(Augustine, City of God)

Again, who is the State’s Authority? Can Joseph Goebbels justify his genocide of the Jewish Holocaust by saying that he was doing it on orders from Hitler, the head of the German state?-

Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime. (CCC 2266)

Will the Catholic church also allow a legitimate public authority who has the right and duty to rape women who do not agree to sleep with the King? - if it is instituted by the King, and is even okayed by Augustine in the City of God? Who is the Supreme authority?
David had the power to send Bathsheba’s husband to war to get him killed, so that he could marry Bathsheba. Does his being the Supreme Authority justify what he did

*“It is lawful to kill when fighting in a just war; when carrying out by order of the Supreme Authority a sentence of death in punishment of a crime; and, finally, in cases of necessary and lawful defense of one’s own life against an unjust aggressor.” *(Catechism of Pius X)

*What is a just war? Was Americans war against Iraq a just war?
If Vatican wages a war against England to capture and omprison Bishop of Canterbury, can we call it a just war?
Ender

 

[frantony]

This statement give a false dichotomy between what God said as man and what God says through man. God is the same. He can not reveal one truth while he was on Earth and then guide His Church into a different truth. Rather it is far more likely that our own opinion is mistaken about what Jesus taught rather than God is being confused.

God is the same, but men are not the same. and even one man can say even opposing things at different times, depending on the circumstances, because his is a man. That is why, we should not give any man a position of GOD, especially during the end times, when many men will approach us in Jesus’name .

 

[pnewton]

God is the same, but men are not the same. and even one man can say even opposing things at different times, depending on the circumstances, because his is a man. That is why, we should not give any man a position of GOD, especially during the end times, when many men will approach us in Jesus’name .

We have no abliity to give any man authority. Rather it was Jesus Himself who did so. But you have me confused. You say you are Catholic, but are denying the one thing that makes Catholics Catholic.

Also, it is not necessarily end times. People have been saying that for 2000 years,

 

[frantony]

This statement give a false dichotomy between what God said as man and what God says through man. God is the same. He can not reveal one truth while he was on Earth and then guide His Church into a different truth. Rather it is far more likely that our own opinion is mistaken about what Jesus taught rather than God is being confused.

Much misunderstanding among Catholics and between Catholics and protestants has come from people who think that everything a pope or member of the Magisterium says is an infallible teaching of the church. If you are Roman Catholic, ask your priest about this. Such belief is incorrect. With regard to Roman Catholicism, there is the Magisterium, which is said to be a source of infallible teachings, because of the involvement of the Holy Spirit, or charism of the Holy Trinity, the Magisterium. However, there is a heresy, called “Magisteriumism”, which a heresy recognized by the Roman Catholic Church. Rather than try to describe this heresy here, it is recommended that you google the term and see what you can learn about it. It would be healthy for all Christians to learn more about the true teachings of the church and what, exactly, the Roman Catholic church considers heresy versus official teachigs of the RC church. They’re not what most seem to believe.
It describes a heresy not uncommon among conservative Catholics, in which the Magisterium is exaulted in a way which is contrary to the Faith, and which can even tend toward idolatry.

 

[starshiptrooper]

What you have quoted above is not a commandment to man to follow.
God is stating a fact. Both the first man who shed blood and the second man who shed blood to avenge the shedding of blood by first man, are shedders of blood and will be subject to God’s punishment for shedding man’s blood.

Already we now have above two men shedding man’s blood. Now we will need a third man to shed the blood of the second man who shed man’s blood. Finally we will have everybody shedding another’man’s blood. This is why Jesus came and asked man to show the other cheek if you get hit on one.

In the first place, I doubt God makes circular and illogical statements which He would have done if your interpretation of Genesis 9:6 was correct. Furthermore, there are people who have killed on God’s command. Are these people going to be punished by death for obeying God’s command? I suggest you read Romans 13:3-4. These 2 verses together are basis for the Traditional Teaching of the Catholic Church on the death penalty.

But “power” referenced above does not mean authority, because, If you do something that you have authority to do, you will not be guilty of any sin.
But Jesus clearly said that Pilate was guilty, and the Pharisees were more guilty. So obviously, they had only “Power” to sentence Jesus to death, but not the authority.

You are partially correct, Pilate does not have the authority to mistreat and murder Jesus. However, he does have the authority to punish criminals. This is what Jesus is talking about.

But not as a punishment for murder, or blasphemy, or adultery, as the Pharisees and Catholic church professes.
The Jews or Romans did not kill Jesus, and catholic church did not kill “heretics” in self defence.

You said it was never okay to kill someone intentionally. I just proved the falsity of the claim. This is irrelevant to the question at hand. Retribution is the primary purpose of punishment. (CCC #2266) The more serious the crime, the more severe the retribution must be. Logically, the most severe crimes must be avenged by the most severe punishments. The most severe punishment we can give another person is death. Thus, death is the required punishment for certain crimes. This is what Genesis 9:6 establishes.

 

[pnewton]

It would be healthy for all Christians to learn more about the true teachings of the church and what, exactly, the Roman Catholic church considers heresy versus official teachigs of the RC church. They’re not what most seem to believe.

I am well aware of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church on the death penalty. The Church has traditional and always upheld the right of the state to execution as punishment.

I would like to point out your cicrular logic. You speak against the Magisterium and gave us this supposed heresy. However, where has this ever been formally defined as a heresy. Ronald Conte???

This “heresy” is nothing but an excuse to dissent from teaching, once it is affirmed that teaching is in fact traditional teaching of the Church. I find it patently absurd and in direct contradiction to the promised Jesus made to His disciples for His Church. That is why** I** am a Catholic.

However, I would warn all to be wary of those who claim the Catholic faith yet argue against the Holy Father and against the Magisterium. Something does not add up. The wolf may look like a sheep and go, “Baa, baa,” yet remain a dangerous predator.

If I am wrong, then show me where the Holy Catholic Church has ever defined this term as a heresy. And remember, it must meet a higher criteria, in your way of thinking, than the Church’s teaching on the death penalty.

 

[frantony]

This statement give a false dichotomy between what God said as man and what God says through man. God is the same. He can not reveal one truth while he was on Earth and then guide His Church into a different truth. Rather it is far more likely that our own opinion is mistaken about what Jesus taught rather than God is being confused.

*You are very correct. The catholic Church is mistaken about Jesus’stand on this issue.
Jesus, in every one of His teachings and His miracles is exhorting us to have hope in the ability of God’s WORD (Jesus) to turn even hopeless situations into something positive.

Instead of condemning Mary Magdeline as a prostitute, and leaving her to be stoned to death, He saw the virtue in her, forgave her, and converted her into a saint.
Jesus put confidence into Peter, an unsuccessful and self depreciating fisherman, and made him strong enough to lead the Church in her initial days.
Jesus converted a tax- collector Levi- into Mathew , one of his ardent desciples.
He even had power to bring rotting dead bodies of people (Laazar, and a dead girl) back into life.
What Jesus is showing us is that we should not condemn anybody to death, but by trusting in Jesus power, we should bring life and health and virtue into even the most hopeless situations in this world.

He says that man should not judge other men, and no man is authorised to punish other men because every man is a sinner. He corrected many punitive measures suggested in the Old Testament, as per the Old covenant. The Catholic Church refuses to see the changes made in God’s New covenant with Man, after Jesus’birth in this world. ( many rules -like eye for an eye… etc. have to be re-written.)

Jesus says Only God has the authority to judge men, because He is sinless, and can see the real truth, because all condemning people have logs in their eyes. God does not condemn any man living in this world. He sees opportunity for repentance and conversion into virtue, even in the worst sinner in this world. *

 

[frantony]

I am well aware of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church on the death penalty.

But do not care much about Jesus’ opinion about it.

The Church has traditional and always upheld the right of the state to execution as punishment.
The morality of which is what we are debating about.

I would like to point out your cicrular logic.

You speak against the Magisterium and gave us this supposed heresy. However, where has this ever been formally defined as a heresy. Ronald Conte???

*Who is Ronald Conte? When we have Jesus and God’s word explaining things we have to know clearly, why bring in other Santa Clauses??

Jesus has at several occasions blamed the so called learned priests for holding back Truth from His people.
Luke 11:52 says:
Jesus said: “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.” [NIV]*

This “heresy” is nothing but an excuse to dissent from teaching, once it is affirmed that teaching is in fact traditional teaching of the Church.

Should a Christian follow Jesus’ teaching to love, forgive and save a sinner from death,
or Catholic Church’s teaching to condemn and and sentence a sinner to death?

I find it patently absurd and in direct contradiction to the promised Jesus made to His disciples for His Church. That is why** I** am a Catholic.

If the Catholic Church is teaching men to condemn sinners and sentence them to death instead of forgiving them and saving them from death (like Jesus did), they are teaching heresy and are working for the Anti Christ, and not Jesus Christ.

However, I would warn all to be wary of those who claim the Catholic faith yet argue against the Holy Father and against the Magisterium. Something does not add up. The wolf may look like a sheep and go, “Baa, baa,” yet remain a dangerous predator.

Your warning sounds very similar to what the Pharisees said when they accused Jesus of blasphemy, and sentenced Him to death.

If I am wrong, then show me where the Holy Catholic Church has ever defined this term as a heresy.

Which term?

And remember, it must meet a higher criteria, in your way of thinking, than the Church’s teaching on the death penalty.

In The Christianity that Jesus taught, there is no higher criteria than love, forgiveness, salvation and life.
All teachings exhorting men to take revenge, punish, hate, condemn and kill originate from the Anti-Christ.