Death Penalty and the Bible

[triumphguy]

On that point:

Evangelium Vitae
(The Gospel of Life)
Pope John Paul II, 1995

1. … Moreover, "legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life, the common good of the family or of the state."44 Unfortunately, it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose action brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason.45

1. This is the context in which to place the problem of the death penalty. On this matter there is a growing tendency, both in the church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely. The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity and thus, in the end, with God’s plan for man and society. The primary purpose of the punishment which society inflicts is "to redress the disorder caused by the offense."46 Public authority must redress the violation of personal and social rights by imposing on the offender an adequate punishment for the crime, as a condition for the offender to regain the exercise of his or her freedom. In this way authority also fulfills the purpose of defending public order and ensuring people’s safety, while at the same time offering the offender an incentive and help to change his or her behavior and be rehabilitated.47

It is clear that for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: In other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare if not practically nonexistent.

 

[pnewton]

Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare if not practically nonexistent.

This is not part of the Bible, the topic of the thread. I was going to respond, but I think we are wondering off topic here.

 

[triumphguy]

Scripture allows it but “Why does the Church condemn it?” is the tenor of the OP

Some posters say it is not condemned. I say that the Church says it is, except in truly exceptional circumstances. So not really off topic.

 

[pnewton]

Scripture allows it but “Why does the Church condemn it?” is the tenor of the OP

Some posters say it is not condemned. I say that the Church says it is, except in truly exceptional circumstances. So not really off topic.

Okay, then I will add that JP II’s position is based on the assumption of improvement in the penal system to be up to the challenge of safely housing anyone. Note that his encyclical contains not evidence or footnote to this position. Thus, we have Pope Benedict XVI acknowledge the possibility of diversity of opinion on this issue. Thus, we are left with the idea of the Church being against the application of the death penalty today being a tad inexact.

 

[triumphguy]

I disagree: there’s not a lot of ambguity about PJPII or PBXVI or the US Catholic Bishop’s stance against the death penalty. Basically - unless there is a serious safety issue, the death penalty is not permitted. The criteria for a serious safety issue would be similar to killing someone in self defence. It wouldn’t be acceptable that the perpetrator is a very bad guy, or that his crimes were heinous.

JPII

not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: In other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare if not practically nonexistent.

 

[pnewton]

I disagree: there’s not a lot of ambguity about PJPII or PBXVI or the US Catholic Bishop’s stance against the death penalty.

I tried. I suggested we not open this here, but okay, if you insist. As the quote said, the opinion is based on this premise: …“as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system…” This premise is not supported in any fashion in any Catholic document. Therefore, if the premise is wrong, the conclusion is faulty. As the Catholic Church can only teach doctrine, not science, the teaching of John Paul can only be taken as far as the premise, which is not doctrine, is true or false.

 

[triumphguy]

It’s not a false premise. I think your argument is faulty. Are you telling me that the penal systems of the western world can’t incarcerate the vast majority of men so that the public is safe?

I’ve worked in prisons. I know the answer.

 

[pnewton]

It’s not a false premise. I think your argument is faulty. Are you telling me that the penal systems of the western world can’t incarcerate the vast majority of men so that the public is safe?

I’ve worked in prisons. I know the answer.

The majority? Absolutely. All? No. This is also my area of expertise. It makes my opinion no more than an opinion, but at least it is an educated one.

If you ever want to kill some time, try searching for the basis of this opinion amoung Church leaders. I have killed a lot of time this way and have not found one single item.

 

[puzzleannie]

I thought it was common knowledge that the Catholic Church is against the death penalty.

Was I mistaken? I did ask this question to find out more about it after all.

what is common knowledge is the actual Church documents, which allow for the theoretical possibility that the death penalty may be necessary in some cases to protect society from a really incorrigible criminal, but with the proviso that due process and a well-functioning criminal justice system must protect against conviction of the innocent. Since at least in the US the states are not at that level, the Bishops rightly suggest the death penalty should not be used for that reason. They also suggest along with almost anyone who studies these issues, no matter what their POV, that as it is administered now the death penalty is not a deterent, is not working and the whole issue needs to be rethought. search death penalty on this forum and you will get links to church docs, I can’t research right now. That is far from an absolute condemnation of the DP in all cases.

the other false assumption in OP is that God is held to the same standard as humans. he sets the standard, he is the author of life so it is his alone to decide who lives and who dies, and he who sets the term of human life. For him to do so is not to violate his own commands, it is to exercise his omnipotent power over life and death.

since the levitical laws in the OT do not bind Christians it is not really relevant in a discussion of the Church’s views on the issue.

 

[triumphguy]

The majority? Absolutely. All? No. This is also my area of expertise. It makes my opinion no more than an opinion, but at least it is an educated one.

If you ever want to kill some time, try searching for the basis of this opinion amoung Church leaders. I have killed a lot of time this way and have not found one single item.

The problem with supporting the death penalty in the US (and I don’t know if you do) from the public safety point of view is that the prison authorities manage to hold the inmates on death row for decades until all the reviews, appeals and legal process has been gone through. If a person is arguing that the death penalty should remain in the US because of the safety/self defence argument, the fact that ALL inmates remain safe on death row for many years and even decades works against that argument.

 

[Ender]

Genesis 9:5-6 …

Arguments that this is a citation from the OT and is no longer applicable notwithstanding, this is the passage on which the Church has always based her position on capital punishment. You will find it quoted in the new catechism (2260) with the notation that *“This teaching remains necessary for all time.”
*

I know the Catholic Church is against the death penalty, but it is clearly allowed by Scripture. Why does the Catholic Church condemn it?

This is more complicated but the short answer is … she doesn’t. What triumphguy has pointed out is true: this pope, the previous pope, and most bishops oppose the use of capital punishment, but that is not the same as saying that Church doctrine has been changed and now forbids its use except in very narrow circumstances.

Catechism section 2267, which addresses this issue and is the passage people cite to show the Church’s opposition to capital punishment, is not doctrine. It is the prudential opinion of the pope and the Magisterium; the doctrine of the Church has not changed.

Ender

 

[dudleysharp]

It’s not “clearly allowed by Scripture”. Both of those quotes are Old Testament, not New, snip

One of the Ten Commandments is “Thou shalt not kill”, so I think we should take that pretty seriously, as well as Jesus’s teachings of mercy.

The NT death penalty support seems overwhelming.

There is a 2000 year record of Catholic Saints, Popes, religious leaders, biblical scholars and theologians speaking in favor of the death penalty, a record of scholarship, in breadth and depth, which overwhelms any position to the contrary.

The very recent change in the Catholic position is based upon a wrongly considered prudential judgement which finds that “defense of society”, a utilitarian concern, not a moral one, very rarely, if ever, requires execution.

This change in teaching is much more radical than has, generally, been acknowledged and is based upon the Church’s switch to utilitarianism - defense of society - when the teachings have been and must be based upon justice, biblical and theological teachings and tradition - all of which conflict with the newest teachings based upon utility – as utility and justice have major conflicts.

In addition, the evidence is overwhelming that execution offers much greater defense of society than does a life sentence. Dead murderers are infinitely less likely to harm and murder, again than are living murderers.

Living murderers create death and harm in prison, after escape and after improper release. The cases are well known and are daily occurrences.

It is a mystery why the Church chose a utilitarian prudential judgement over eternal teachings based upon justice and chose to spare more murderers at the cost of more innocent deaths, but that is, precisely what She has done.

It is a mystery why the Church didn’t review the available evidence, that execution offers a greater defense of society.

Thankfully, as the Church’s wrongly considered about face is based upon a utilitarian foundation which is a prudential judgement, such means that any Catholic can support more executions and remain a Catholic in good standing.

All interpretations, contrary to the biblical support of capital punishment, are false. Interpreters ought to listen to the Bible’s own agenda, rather than to squeeze from it implications for their own agenda. As the ancient rabbis taught, “Do not seek to be more righteous than your Creator.” (Ecclesiastes Rabbah 7.33.). Part of Synopsis of Professor Lloyd R. Bailey’s book Capital Punishment: What the Bible Says, Abingdon Press, 1987.

God/Jesus: ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother must certainly be put to death.’ Matthew 15:4 NAB. This is a frequent passage which God used in the OT, which, as was Jesus’ custom, He brought into the NT for emphasis of continuity and importance.
full context www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew15.htm

Pope Pius XII: “When it is a question of the execution of a man condemned to death it is then reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned of the benefit of life, in expiation of his fault, when already, by his fault, he has dispossessed himself of the right to live.” 9/14/52.

“Death Penalty Support: Christian and secular Scholars”
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/07/death-penalty-support-modern-catholic.html

Christianity and the death penalty
prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html#F.Christianity

Catholic and other Christian References: Support for the Death Penalty,
homicidesurvivors.com/2006/10/12/catholic-and-other-christian-references-support-for-the-death-penalty.aspx

Quaker biblical scholar Dr. Gervas A. Carey: " . . . the decree of Genesis 9:5-6 is equally enduring and cannot be separated from the other pledges and instructions of its immediate context, Genesis 8:20-9:17; . . . that is true unless specific Biblical authority can be cited for the deletion, of which there appears to be none. It seems strange that any opponents of capital punishment who professes to recognize the authority of the Bible either overlook or disregard the divine decree in this covenant with Noah; . . . capital punishment should be recognized . . . as the divinely instituted penalty for murder; The basis of this decree . . . is as enduring as God; . . . murder not only deprives a man of a portion of his earthly life . . . it is a further sin against him as a creature made in the image of God and against God Himself whose image the murderer does not respect." (p. 111-113). Prof. Carey agrees with Saints Augustine and Aquinas, that executions represent mercy to the wrongdoer: “. . . a secondary measure of the love of God may be said to appear. For capital punishment provides the murderer with incentive to repentance which the ordinary man does not have, that is a definite date on which he is to meet his God. It is as if God thus providentially granted him a special inducement to repentance out of consideration of the enormity of his crime . . . the law grants to the condemned an opportunity which he did not grant to his victim, the opportunity to prepare to meet his God. Even divine justice here may be said to be tempered with mercy.” (p. 116).“A Bible Study”, Essays on the Death Penalty, T. Robert Ingram, ed., St. Thomas Press, Houston, 1963, 1992.

contd

 

[dudleysharp]

contd

Jesus: Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.” The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” (Jesus) replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Luke 23: 39-43

It is not the nature of our deaths, but the state of salvation at the time of death which is most important. This was the perfect opportunity for Jesus to say something contrary to support for execution.

Jesus: “So Pilate said to (Jesus), “Do you not speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you and I have power to crucify you?” Jesus answered (him), “You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above.” John 19:10-11

The power to execute comes directly from God.

Jesus: “You have heard the ancients were told, ˜YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER” and “Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court”. But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, “Raca”, shall be guilty before the supreme court and whoever shall say, “You fool”, shall be guilty enough to go into fiery hell.” Matthew 5:17-22.

Fiery hell is a considerable more severe sanction than any earthly death.

The Holy Spirit, God, through the power and justice of the Holy Spirit, executed both Ananias and his wife, Saphira. Their crime? Lying to the Holy Spirit – to God – through Peter. Acts 5:1-11.

No trial, no appeals, just death on the spot.

God: “You shall not accept indemnity in place of the life of a murderer who deserves the death penalty; he must be put to death.” Numbers 35:31 (NAB) full context usccb.org/nab/bible/numbers/numbers35.htm

For murder, there is no mitigation from a death sentence.

 

[NSFrame]

Gee, I didn’t know the Ten Commandments came from Exodus

My point was simply that you can’t pull Bible quotes and say that they prove anything. A single verse on its own says nothing. Something like the Ten Commandments, on the other hand, have been theologically vetted and determined to be specific instructions from God for humans to follow for life. In fact, the only thing that supercedes the Ten Commandments when determining how God has instructed us would be the two highest commandments from Jesus (i.e. love no other God but Him and love one another as you love yourself).

I am no theological scholar, so excuse the imprecise language here…

 

[Evan]

Cardinal Avery Dulles, a bishop of the United States (recently died), and a theologian, gives the justification for the Death Penalty in firstthings.com/article/2008/08/catholicism-amp-capital-punishment-21

One of the reasons for government to exist is to establish Justice (mercy is up to God). The four purposes of Criminal Punishment are:

Reh

• abilitation.
• Defense against the criminal.
• Deterrence.
• Retribution.

He looks at the traditional reasons and explains why the Church has always supported the option of the Death Penalty.

I’m opposed to it in all but the most extreme circumstances but I support the notion that a country has the right and responsibility to apply it when circumstances require it.

 

[pnewton]

, the fact that ALL inmates remain safe on death row for many years and even decades works against that argument.

No, escapes do happen. Texas had seven at once a few years ago. Even after that, the public was demanding that they still be allowed to see their families.

I guess I would be willing to work for an end to the death penalty by a repeal of the Eighth Amendment, or at least an additional clause that exempted death row inmates from any right or privilege other than life.

 

[pnewton]

A single verse on its own says nothing. Something like the Ten Commandments, on the other hand, have been theologically vetted and determined to be specific instructions from God for humans to follow for life…

Do you also avoid working on Saturday? The Ten Commandments only contain principles delivered in a particular context.

 

[Ender]

My point was simply that you can’t pull Bible quotes and say that they prove anything. A single verse on its own says nothing. Something like the Ten Commandments, on the other hand, have been theologically vetted and determined to be specific instructions from God for humans to follow for life.

This is very true and is a good point to keep in mind: our personal interpretation of passages from the Bible carry no weight. What matters is how the Church interprets those passages and most people are unaware of how the Church understands Gen 9:5-6. Basically she takes them to mean what they obviously say: the life of a murderer is forfeit because the life of his victim was sacred.

Writing on capital punishment in the Catechism of Trent she said:

"The enormity of this sin is manifest from many and weighty passages of Holy Scripture. So much does God abominate homicide that He declares in Holy Writ that of the very beast of the field He will exact vengeance for the life of man, commanding the beast that injures man to be put to death.[1]
[1] Gen 9:5-6

Gen 9:5-6 is appropriate to cite on this topic not because we say it is but because the Church says it is.

If the Pope were to deny that the death penalty could be an exercise of retributive justice, he would be overthrowing the tradition of two millennia of Catholic thought, denying the teaching of several previous popes, and contradicting the teaching of Scripture (notably in Genesis 9:5-6 and Romans 13:1-4). (Cardinal Dulles)

Ender

 

[Fragile]

Paul tells us in Romans 13 that the State does not bear the sword in vain, sounds like the death penalty to me, and that btw is New Testament.

 

[triumphguy]

If we weren’t Catholics the NT would be enough. But we have a Church that teaches.