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Oscarthecat
Guest
No, no, no- that’s a big misunderstanding.
They slipped in the shower.
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They slipped in the shower.
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apromisemade
Guest
Twelve soldiers were convicted and reprimended with jail time, reduction of rank, etc.
And just like the student you speak of who conduct hazing, the punishments of these soldiers nowhere near equaled the gravity of their crimes.
Don’t put words into my mouth. I never once suggested that all military men were evil. My own brother is a Marine. They’re not all bad people, but neither are they all saints.
I am fascinated by your efforts to trivialize someone delibrately acting in a way that causes unnecessary suffering or death for another human being. When I cited that hazing is illegal, I did so because you spoke of hazing and acts of torture as if it was no big deal. Torture by military personell is also illegal, and just like hazing (I still don’t get how the two coincide) it should not happen. But all sorts of word games have been played by the powers that be to try to make it sound acceptable. I kid you not when I say I once heard a politician say, in referance to acts of sexual degredation, “We didn’t strip them naked, we took their clothes off.”
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apromisemade
Guest
Are you being sarcastic?
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Oscarthecat
Guest
During the apartheid, it was common for the south african government to murder political prisoners, and then list their official cause of death as “slipped in the shower.”
As time went on, hundreds of political prisoners in South Africa died from “slipping in the shower.”
The growing list of prisoners became, at the same time, an unofficial declaration by the South African government of their general disregard for those who opposed them, and a symbol for the urgent need to overthrow that system.
Consequently, saying that a prisoner “slipped in the shower” is a commonly understood reference to an official denial of unjust, institutionalized abuse of political prisoners.
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apromisemade
Guest
Oh:blush: .
Very interesting. I was not aware of that. Thank you for enlightening me
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
human nature is human nature
And what has a higher standard?
- DNA is not involved in all cases 2) the moral aspects of torture and death are not equal to the moral aspects of guilt (reference John 8)
The “LOONIE LEFT” nor the president elect were in charge of GITMO so any release is strictly the responsiblity of the person in charge
And again why did your military release those " captured on the battlefield while weilding a nasty weapon…shooting up innocent victims for the sake of sport " ?
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RobHom
Guest
That was a curious response…what was the point? I merely pointed out that you have abjectly failed to support your position.
Its good that you did “rest your case”…as you have no case to rest. You have a strange agenda…one with little or no facts or reason to back it up.
You can’t even spell out the difference between “interrogation” and “torture”.
Shucks, you can’t even answer “simple questions”…
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RobHom
Guest
Texas Roofer…above all, the question posed to you, and your failure to address it…with even a single bit of honesty…is what destroys any and every premise that you propose. You can’t or won’t answer…and you and I know why.
**Resting your case and going silent…is your best choice.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Maybe all who were interrogated were. You are still stuck on the word “torture”…
Simple, you have offered no “authority”, and I have already state that I have no appointed authority. I am merely “generalizing” which seems to confound you.
Oh, and your system would be? My system if I were to be appointed to function would be that authorized by my C in C.
There are no “universal standards”…
I wasn’t at My Lai, and I had no involvement with anything that happened to Native Americans.
Now you are floundering and grasping at straws. The formal term is “obfuscation”. You are starting down the slippery slope where you destroy your own argument.
If you don’t understand the purpose of the verification, then you don’t understand anything about the issue at hand. Verification leads to disarming the WMD and preventing innocent death. The interrogation was worthwhile and fruitful.
No, it was a pointed statement…and as said prior, there is no universal standard.
I would have to ask you the same since you dragged My Lai into the arena, and also where Native Indians are concerned.
I never said that being a conquering anyone gave a moral authority. A force that conquers another assumes it as a given.
That claim is nearly as valid as saying you can levitate the Jefferson Monument and “guarantee it”! LOL!!
No, I know precisely what torture is, it is you who has refused to give your definition of torture.
I never said said I “used” a standard.
Only God is “omniscient”, man can but work with what he has at hand…and prove its veracity or lack thereof. By your pedantic reuse of the word “omniscient” if applied by your methodology, then we cannot have a criminal justice system, as often times “unknown” informants are…so which is it?
No, I have not claimed either…you have been making assumptions… Sorry.
But then again… I note that you can’t answer a simple question put to you…
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Ahh, while that may be true, it seems you are unable to understand or define what torture is opposed to interrogation.
Fooled me.
Good, you have finally absorbed one fact.
As with every human function that requires a decision, as does the entire criminal justice system. Your point?
Torture is not the issue. Your point?
Now we are starting to get more of a picture of you. Most people I have heard made comments like that are disaffected effete elitists.
I have never hidden from my responsibilities, as a Soldier or as a Citizen …Coward, not am I.
Not a spin, a statement of simple fact. I cannot be held responsible actions of those outside my sphere of influence, anymore than you can.
Can you provide even an inkling of a hint that C in C USARVN or the C in C = POTUS ordered what happened at My Lai?
I’ve not avoided a single issue. I’ve answered everyone of your questions and challenges…its YOU who is avoiding issues and “obfuscating”…
Obfuscation. No-one specifically said that torture would be required. You assumed.
More obfuscation. And not so. Assumption on your part.
Coming farther out of the closet?
Whatever made you think that Americans considered Vietnamese “immoral subhumans”. I never di. I think they were moral, most Vietnamese being Buddhist or Catholic. They were dedicated and brave fighters…
As to Native Americans, I can’t speak to ages gone by, but myself, I served with Native Americans, who were brave & fearless. Nothing subhuman about them or the members of the Seminole Tribe I went to school with.
As to the treatment of Native Americans…there are chapters in history that are certainly bad. But those chapters apply to the British, the French, the Spanish as well. Yes, there were wrongs committed, but I am to do what about it?
As to My Lai, yes, wrongs were done. However, I doubt you have knowledge of exactly what transpired there… But still, I can tell you had I been there, it would not have been as it was. I would have either stopped anyone from shooting or died protecting innocent civilians. You can believe that or not…immaterial to me.
This is where your understandings of the reality of war fails. Both are to the victors. It is is theirs to claim as victor, but Americans have never viewed it in that manner.
No, it is simply a statement of fact. You’ve offered no evidence to support your claim only opinion.
After all the blathering you’ve done…seems unlikely you couldn’t do it one more time…
Another “assumption” on your part. “Proofs”?
Oh, I get it…you a terrorist who has specific knowledge of a WMD that is set to kill many thousands of innocents…have “due process”, while we’re at it, lets pay for their public defender, and listen to “I take the 5th”…long after thousands of innocent people are dead… Good choice. Surely every person who’s lost loved ones in the many thousands killed by terrorists would love to fund your election to some exalted position.
No, the questions put to you were straightforward and direct. I realize that you are bright enough to realize that to answer either way is to either kill your own argument dead, or reveal yourself for what you really are…
That you disagree is of no consequence. Just remember, it is because of those willing, that the unwilling can remain unwilling.
Texas Roofer…above all, the question posed to you, and your failure to address it…with even a single bit of honesty…is what destroys any and every premise that you propose. You can’t or won’t answer…and you and I know why.
Resting your case and going silent…is your best choice.
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RobHom
Guest
Death Penalty, when properly applied, as the result of a proper investigation, indictment, and trial, and judgment by a jury of peers, is the removal of a complete undesirable who has committed murder or multiple murders from society.
Torture is:
1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining… something a couple of you are doing a lot of.
Interrogation is:
1 : to question formally and systematically 2 : to give or send out a signal to (as a transponder) for triggering an appropriate response
Sorry folks, but barking at the moon will not help anyone.
Torture has never been “legalized” in the US, and is a heinous crime to inflict on prisoners. In the case of what happened in Abu Ghraib… I personally think that much of the problem or reasons that what happened did happen because the troops charged with the mission of detaining the prisoners were not Regular Army. As such, they were not well prepared for the mission. I am not denigrating reservists or National Guardsmen, but…the simple fact is this: Discipline in “weekend warrior” units is not as strenuous as it is in Regular Army or other branch units.
Honestly, I can only countenance the use of “forceful interrogation” … under the direst of circumstances, and I do mean “the direst of circumstances”. There are too many other “benign methods” to obtain needed or desired information.
With regards to Julius & Ethel Rosenberg…there is a lot of armchair quarterbacking going on…and hindsight is always 20-20, but the problem is that the issue has not been settled, and probably never will be. Even with all of the legal wrangling and appeals, their convictions were upheld. Possibly one might want to read the information posted here: law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/rosenb/ROSENB.HTM and pay particular attention to the sentencing judge’s statement at the sentencing and the appeals that are listed.
Yes, its possible that Ethel Rosenberg was not as guilty as she was found to be, and yet…its also possible that she was every bit as guilty as found.
McCarthy…he was as flakey as any loonie ever was, and he went down in flames…and historically he is regarded as a complete fool and embarrassment to the country.
Torture is:
1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining… something a couple of you are doing a lot of.
Interrogation is:
1 : to question formally and systematically 2 : to give or send out a signal to (as a transponder) for triggering an appropriate response
Sorry folks, but barking at the moon will not help anyone.
Torture has never been “legalized” in the US, and is a heinous crime to inflict on prisoners. In the case of what happened in Abu Ghraib… I personally think that much of the problem or reasons that what happened did happen because the troops charged with the mission of detaining the prisoners were not Regular Army. As such, they were not well prepared for the mission. I am not denigrating reservists or National Guardsmen, but…the simple fact is this: Discipline in “weekend warrior” units is not as strenuous as it is in Regular Army or other branch units.
Honestly, I can only countenance the use of “forceful interrogation” … under the direst of circumstances, and I do mean “the direst of circumstances”. There are too many other “benign methods” to obtain needed or desired information.
With regards to Julius & Ethel Rosenberg…there is a lot of armchair quarterbacking going on…and hindsight is always 20-20, but the problem is that the issue has not been settled, and probably never will be. Even with all of the legal wrangling and appeals, their convictions were upheld. Possibly one might want to read the information posted here: law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/rosenb/ROSENB.HTM and pay particular attention to the sentencing judge’s statement at the sentencing and the appeals that are listed.
Yes, its possible that Ethel Rosenberg was not as guilty as she was found to be, and yet…its also possible that she was every bit as guilty as found.
McCarthy…he was as flakey as any loonie ever was, and he went down in flames…and historically he is regarded as a complete fool and embarrassment to the country.
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RobHom
Guest
And your point would be? That I am correct in my assertions?
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RobHom
Guest
Texas Roofer…I am mildly amused by your antics, but also mildly disappointed by the fact that you attempt to allude to having a sane rationale for your position, but appear to be fully unable or unwilling to support it with anything more than trite responses.
Why not just answer the question posted above? I would think that anyone who would declare himself or herself a Catholic
would be eager and willing to declare their position based on the strength of their convictions. I am a Catholic, and I have made my position clear…
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Ender
Guest
Can you link to some reports that discuss this? Are you saying that there were prisoners at Guantanamo that died as a direct result of abuse?
Ender
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
There is a classic problem, only those involved can report, and one side of them is died. So if they were killed or driven to suicide you need the people responsible for the crime to tell others, which is not likely.
A U.N. panel said May 19 that holding detainees indefinitely at Guantanamo violated the world’s ban on torture. The panel said the United States should close the detention center.
cbs2chicago.com/national/Guantanamo.Bay.Gitmao.2.268803.html
A British man who was held at Guantanamo and later released without charge says he’s not convinced that three detainees committed suicide.
cbs2chicago.com/national/Guantanamo.Bay.Gitmao.2.268768.html
Common sense says the US would not take these risks without reason, and the reason is ------------
A U.N. panel said May 19 that holding detainees indefinitely at Guantanamo violated the world’s ban on torture. The panel said the United States should close the detention center.
cbs2chicago.com/national/Guantanamo.Bay.Gitmao.2.268803.html
A British man who was held at Guantanamo and later released without charge says he’s not convinced that three detainees committed suicide.
cbs2chicago.com/national/Guantanamo.Bay.Gitmao.2.268768.html
Common sense says the US would not take these risks without reason, and the reason is ------------
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RobHom
Guest
Actually, I do believe that with the upcoming change of administrations…that there will be more information forthcoming. We Americans seemingly have acquired a strong tendency toward political and social masochism wherein we love to air our dirty laundry and self flagellate ourselves, and the media is the judge, jury and hangman.
What has happened thus far, is at the feet of the current administration… Cowboy diplomacy, as in swaggering and challenging with arrogance and disregard for all else is automatically doomed to fail. Nazi Germany proved that.
The problem is though, that while the erstwhile “diplomats” at the UN want to “govern” the US…they are being rather hypocritical in their demands or desires. According to Amnesty International, approximately 50% of the worlds nations have outlawed or ceased the use of Capital Punishment, so that leaves them only two other choices… the imposition of a Life Sentence,(which according to the UN…is torture) or a limited sentence which eventually releases the killer back into society…I don’t know the statistics for repeat offenders, but…Canada has experienced a rather high rate of repeat offenders…which is interesting given the fact that handguns and such are outlawed in Canada. amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ACT50/005/2004/en/dom-ACT500052004en.pdf
Frankly, I don’t place much “stock” in the UN or its people. Most of them have been sucking at the teat of the US for so long that they are nothing less than “welfare recipients”… nationmaster.com/graph/eco_eco_aid_don-economy-economic-aid-donor
What would one expect otherwise from someone like this. You also have to consider that he is on a “fishing expedition for money” and he has a lawyer pushing paper. Anything he says, be it hyperbole or otherwise will be intended to serve his purpose.
Common sense if properly applied, would indicate that the US should re-familiarize itself with the Monroe Doctrine…and stop trying to be the world’s police force. God did not die and leave us in charge of the world.
We have a duty to protect ourselves and our closest allies, but that does not grant us as a country the right to preemptively screw around with the entire political process of the world.
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ninaq4
Guest
***warning…rant post to follow (NOT directed at YOU Ender)
That’s the point of the whole thing…when has the US used torture simply to kill someone??
When we have employed any methods of “torture” it has been to obtain further information from a suspect to prevent further INNOCENT blood loss.
The whole game that so many on here play is really pathetic…I would bet just about anything on the fact that most of the posters here would be all to supportive of the sort of “torture” the US employs if it were their direct families who were being threatened.
The whole “holier than thou” game is a sad thing to see…especially when mis-information about the Church teachings is being spread.
I find it repulsive to read so many posters talking about how bad and “immoral” the death penalty and torture is…yet…many of those same posters seem to be perfectly okay with the acception of abortion…cause “its a woman’s right to choose”…talk about TORTURE…babies are being ripped apart, yet why aren’t these same Catholics crying about that?
In another thread I read posters talking about how gay marriage is not so bad and we should just accept it because its “discrimination”…what???
Its a sad situation to come on a site that calls itself “Catholic Answers” only to find so many mis-informed about what the Church itself actually teaches and believes. The whole “pick and choose” mentality is disgusting…and the fact that more than 54% of Catholics voted for a candidate that openly supports abortion and who has promised to pass FOCA as soon as possible…well that’s just disturbing and frankly, turns me off of even wanting to associate myself with anyone calling themself “catholic”.
Finally, I know that a lot of posters on here are NOT Catholic…many just come to cause chaos and do what they can to undermine the faith of others…I hope and PRAY that those who are serious about their Catholic faith…those who hold true to ALL the Tenants of the faith, are STRONG enough to know the difference!
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ninaq4
Guest
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RobHom
Guest
Out of every thing that you said, that (above) was the only thing that I have a problem with. It seems that due to the outcome of 9/11… that the current President pretended exactly that. It happened didn’t it? If you are going to cast a rock at the top, then you have to continue doing it.
At one time in our history…it was always said that the “Commander” (the man at the top) was responsible for anything and everything that his minions did…and conversely he took credit for all the good. When did we stop doing that?..Why?
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ninaq4
Guest
Umm…no, actually President Bush took action, he has been the ONLY one who’s willing to do so!
Course, he’s always ensured that we haven’t been attacked again since then…I say, he gets a lot of my respect and admiration…he did what was right, simply because it was right…even when NO ONE, not even his when “own” Congress didn’t support him…that’s the markings of a true leader and great man.
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