K
kbwall
Guest
What danger are they to the community if they’re locked away in a maximum security cell?
- Status
A
adrift
Guest
The killing of other prisoners and guards.
D
Debora123
Guest
There are maximum security prisons out there that keep certain prisoners locked away alone for all but one hour out of the whole week.
D
Debora123
Guest
I still don’t understand how any human being can kill another human being to say that killing is wrong.
I see that they have taken the opposite position, and I find that extremely strange. I may be mistaken, but didn’t JPII stand up against the death penalty? I’m pretty sure I remember the late pope talking to Bush about the death penalty back when he was president, I’m pretty sure they had opposing views.
A
adrift
Guest
Yet they still kill while in maximum security. A lot goes on in prisons that is covered up. One prisoner was beaten to death with a toilet seat, the cause of death was listed as natural.
His position was that the state had the right to execute but that he thought it should be used rarely.
D
Debora123
Guest
How is any prisoner able to kill someone when the only time he ever leaves his solitary cell is when he is led out by multiple armed guards once a week, and led into a a solitary cage outside for one hour?
D
Debora123
Guest
It just seems silly that we’d have to resort to killing someone who is already in prison in order to keep other prisoners/guards safe. I mean, this is the 21st century for crying out loud. A civilized society like ours can’t figure out a way around this? And the Church justifies this??
A
adrift
Guest
It has been done. They have nothing to do but to plot.
Justifies it? No the Church only points out the morality. You are allowed to defend yourself. The state has a duty to defend her citizens.
D
Debora123
Guest
Really? When/how/where??
J
JackyB
Guest
I have friends who are no longer alive having died in some of the most inhumane ways, do I believe that they are people who committed these most barbaric crimes? Yes they are but you mention that we have become more civilised, I disagree we will always have in our midst ‘people’ who will kill the most inocent in the most atrocious ways and I see nothing against the death penalty in these cases. I feel that we no longer have justice systems that treats crime seriously anymore, any discussion with regards to punishment is shouted down by accusations of revenge. There appears to be less empathy with victims then perpetrators and I would imagine that there is way more funds directed at perpetrators and their rehabilitation. Just because my children said they were sorry when having done something wrong, they are still grounded, and that is the basis of being punished. I use quotations because I believe anyone who can commit heinous crimes loses some of their humanity until he seeks repentance.
I pray for all the victims and perpetrators of crime that they find peace in Gods love.
A
adrift
Guest
E
Ender
Guest
I appears that the Church justifies because God has commanded it. Even the new Catechism refers back to Gen 9:6:
Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.
What you have focused on is the life of the criminal but what God (and the Church) are pointing out is the heinousness of the sin and that the life of the murderer is required to expiate that sin, expiation that otherwise does not occur even should the sinner repent.
Ender
E
Ender
Guest
Protection is a valid objective of punishment and if it was the primary objective an argument could be made that locking up murderers in secure prisons would eliminate the need for their execution. The problems with this is that we tend not to lock up all murderers in sufficiently secure facilities and, even in maximum security, prisoners still have the ability to communicate and can and have ordered the murder of others, so the belief that society is protected solely by prisons is illusory.
The major problem, however, is that protection is not the primary objective of punishment so protection of itself cannot either require or ban the use of capital punishment. The propriety of using capital punishment must be determined by punishment’s primary objective: retributive justice. There is no point in talking about protection without first addressing the obligation of justice.
Ender
E
estesbob
Guest
It is important that we understandthe concept of an intrinsic evil. Abortion for instance is an intrinsic evil and can never be supported by a Catholic either directly or indirectly. The death penalty, which I personally oppose as vehemently as I oppose abortion, is not an intrinsic evil. The Church does not now nor ever has denied the government’s right to use the death penalty It is the opinion of the Church today , an opinion I share,that the cases where the death penalty is appropriate are so rare as to be practically nonexistent. The Pope himself, however, said a Catholic can in good conscience disagree with this opinion.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
We seem to be talking only about the death penalty as applied to murderers. But don’t forget that the death penalty also applies to other criimes, including treason. So let me ask you what the Church teaching would say about the following:
Suppose it is the middle of World War II, and a German citizen is caught by the Nazis forwarding German state secrets to the Allies. He is tried and convicted in a German court of the crime of treason and sentenced to death. Now what does the Church say about such an application of the death penalty for treason? Or does the allowance of the death penalty only apply to murder?
D
Debora123
Guest
It would be extremely sad if someone wrongly accused of murder got sentenced to die. It happens, you know. I watch the Court TV channel a lot.
Have any of you seen the movie Dead Man Walking?
I think the death penalty is heinous.
Have any of you seen the movie Dead Man Walking?
I think the death penalty is heinous.
D
Debora123
Guest
I asked for a case in which a prisoner in a maximum security prison (the kind where there is no interaction with other inmates whatsoever and only leave their solitary cell once a week to go into a solitary outdoor cage) killed someone else in the prison. These prisoners were not in that type of maximum security, and I’m not even sure they were even locked up for murder, which would dismiss the death penalty anyway.
K
kbwall
Guest
This question automatically has bias because nobody likes Nazis.
What if that same scenario happened, but in America. And an American soldier leaked American secrets to terrorists, and they were able to attack and kill innocent Americans. What do we do with this treasonous American?
A
adrift
Guest
This prison was where Tim Mcveigh was held. The other thing that has happened in these prisons is prisoner escapes, I have already stated that they hide many things that happen in these prisons. I know the guards. As I have said they cover up, murders committed in prison. If you are not talking about the Florence prison, please name the prison you are talking about.
I see you have mentioned Dead Man Walking written by Sister Helen Prejean who has a dubious record where abortion is concerned.
she said
I don’t trust her view on the death penalty.
If it were truly possible to protect by imprisoning, as you suggest, there would be no need to execute. What you fail to understand because you come from an emotional point is that it is not always possible to do so. Not all murders are a danger. There are multiple reasons why murders occur. But when you have some one like Ted Bundy, you are not going to stop them from killing. He escaped and killed eight more before he was executed. But this really isn’t a discussion about the death penalty but if somehow the Church teaches wrongly. That is attacking the Church which is established and protected by Jesus. The teaching that you attack is infallible. If it could have been changed, the Pope would have done so. The best he could do was to say that it should be used rarely, not never it should be used. I agree that it should be used rarely.
H
Hadrianus
Guest
Down to the 1970’s all Catholic theologians accepted the death penalty as a legitimate punishment for certain crimes. It is also the universal catholic tradition to allow the Daeth penalty. At the same time recent Popes, ie Paul VI and John Paul II have spoken against it.
At present the preferred Catholic position is appears to be that in developed countries the need for it is greatly reduced and therefore imprisonment is a better solution. But ultimately it is a prudential matter. Cardianl Ratzinger pointed out in a letter to the US bishops that opposition to the death penalty and opposition to abortion cannot be seen as of equal significance, as opposition to abortion must be an absolute.
Hence I agree with what some others have said that the teaching seems to be somewhat in flux.
At present the preferred Catholic position is appears to be that in developed countries the need for it is greatly reduced and therefore imprisonment is a better solution. But ultimately it is a prudential matter. Cardianl Ratzinger pointed out in a letter to the US bishops that opposition to the death penalty and opposition to abortion cannot be seen as of equal significance, as opposition to abortion must be an absolute.
Hence I agree with what some others have said that the teaching seems to be somewhat in flux.
- Status