Death Penalty not against CC?

[wynnejj]

What about incarcerated terrorists? There are just wars and, killing is justified… including executions. Terrorists engage in undeclared warfare. It is a just war to fight terrorists engaged in an unjust, undeclared war. There is a deterrence factor here for the terrorist who is not willing to go kamikaze that must be considered. So it is punishment for the individual and protection by deterrence from many terrorists who value their life before their cause.

 

[Ender]

Unbelievable. I don’t feel like further debating about this, but all I can say is it makes no sense whatsoever and goes against everything I’ve ever known about the message of Jesus and Christianity.

I’ve never doubted the Catholic faith in my entire life until I joined CAF.

It is disturbing to think that debates over doctrine should cause you to doubt your faith. I can believe they could cause you to doubt your perception of the truth, but that is a very different thing than doubting the truth of the Church herself.

I do believe that “the message of Jesus and Christianity” has been distorted some to where we are presented solely with the soft, loving side of Jesus with all of the hard, difficult parts removed, with one area in particular being the personal responsibility for sin and the fact that the sinner deserves punishment as a matter of justice.

For example, some are inclined to replace exaggerated attitudes of the past with other exaggerations: From seeing sin everywhere they pass to not recognizing it anywhere; from too much emphasis on the fear of eternal punishment they pass to preaching a love of God that excludes any punishment deserved by sin; (JPII)

These discussions may challenge your understanding of the faith but don’t think for a moment that they present any challenge to the faith itself.

Ender

 

[adrift]

People on this thread here are saying that the CCC is in error on this issue and that the death penalty can be used as a punishment, not limited to ONLY when it’s a complete necessity to save over lives.

I haven’t seen anyone say this. Nor does the CCC support your statement.

2265
Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility…Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent

Whether she believes in abortion or not, the movie (which had nothing to do with abortion) made a good point I think. It’s an ugly thing to kill another person, and it shouldn’t be done unless it’s an absolute necessity and a last resort means to defend the innocent.

It is ugly to kill an innocent person. You can’t get more innocent than a child in the womb. Her position on abortion undermines her opinion on the death penalty why should any one listen to her.

You gotta admit though, in this country at least, people are NOT sentenced to death because they are seen as a danger to the other inmates… or even because they are seen as a danger to society while still locked up (considering how impossible it is to break free from maximum security prisons of the 21st century). They are sentenced to death as a way to be punished. So I don’t think we can justify the death penalty by saying “oh well they were still a threat to others…”

Besides your opinion do you have support for this. Escapes are made from maximum security prisons. There is no such thing as an escape proof prison.

 

[jmcrae]

Unbelievable. I don’t feel like further debating about this, but all I can say is it makes no sense whatsoever and goes against everything I’ve ever known about the message of Jesus and Christianity.

What do you think is the message of Jesus and Christianity?

We must believe in Jesus Christ on the Cross and in the Resurrection, we must repent of our sins in the confidence of His grace and forgiveness, we must strive to become Saints, and we do this by means of obedience to the Church that He established - this is the message.

If you have heard something else, then you have been misinformed.

I’ve never doubted the Catholic faith in my entire life until I joined CAF.

Just because there may be rare cases when the death penalty could be appropriate?

If a crazy person were holding a gun to your child’s head, you would be well within your rights to stop him - even by killing him, if it turned out to be necessary.

Society as a whole has the same right to prevent crazed individuals from wreaking havoc on the innocent (or the less guilty), as well - even by removing them permanently from the earth, if that’s what it takes.

 

[Hadrianus]

CCC2265

             "..... the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty...."

This is the core text. The rest is a question of prudence and circumstances. It should be mentioned however that the death penalty is a punishment, not an act of revenge.
As revenge it is immoral, and that is why it must be decreed by legitimate public authority. as the Council of Trent teaches.

A murderer commits one of the gravest of sins, not only against his fellow man, but against God who alone has the right to take an innocent human life.

 

[jmcrae]

Besides your opinion do you have support for this. Escapes are made from maximum security prisons. There is no such thing as an escape proof prison.

Considering the number of weapons and the amount of illegal drugs that get into prisons, seemingly without the guards noticing, it’s actually surprising that more inmates don’t get out - and I’m thinking it probably has more to do with them having no place really to go, than that they actually couldn’t get out - even prisoners who are supposedly in isolation still manage to communicate with the outside world.

 

[adrift]

Considering the number of weapons and the amount of illegal drugs that get into prisons, seemingly without the guards noticing, it’s actually surprising that more inmates don’t get out - and I’m thinking it probably has more to do with them having no place really to go, than that they actually couldn’t get out - even prisoners who are supposedly in isolation still manage to communicate with the outside world.

I have a close relative that is now retired from the prison system. It isn’t that the guards don’t notice, it is more that they are battling the system.

There is also the controversy that locking people up in isolation is inhumane.

Anecdotes. Here is what some inmates have to say about the
effects of being confined under supermax conditions at the
Colorado State Penitentiary.

 ". . . People come in here with a few problems and will
 leave sociopaths.  Isolation causes people to become bitter,
 angry and disassociated from reality.  They become worse
 people."

 "Check out any caged animal and you will see what happens in
 CSP.  I've seen people just crack and either scream for
 hours on end or cry, people become very depressed, anti-social and want revenge on society for building it.  In
 short CSP creates monsters and they are trying to keep
 people here for five to ten years."

 "I have noticed a sense of total hopelessness.  I don't
 think I will ever leave.  Plus my anger has gone to the
 point of a silent rage.  It's like they want to build a
 killer.  I don't know.  It's hard to explain.]  I am
 beginning to really hate people."

 "I also feel that I have some mental problems and so do
 they, but the medication really does nothing but slow me
 down physically and it only prolongs a problem until I get
 out.  But what then?  I want to make it out there. . . ."

 ". . . They impose a variety of petty little rules and play
 petty little games to try to break a person down mentally. 
 The DOC [Department of Corrections] realizes if they control
 you mentally, it is easier to control you physically.  And
 mental abuse leaves no evidence behind as does physical
 abuse."

 Psychological studies.  Longterm confinement under supermax

conditions is likely to have psychological consequences.
“Studies of the psychological effects of solitary confinement
have found it can produce symptoms of paranoia, hypersensitivity
to noise, panic attacks, hallucinations and even episodes of
amnesia. One article by Harvard psychiatrist Stuart Grassian
reported ‘the emergence of primitive, aggressive fantasies of
revenge, torture, and mutilation of the prison guards’ among
solitary inmates in Massachusetts.”

 

[jmcrae]

I have a close relative that is now retired from the prison system. It isn’t that the guards don’t notice, it is more that they are battling the system.

There is also the controversy that locking people up in isolation is inhumane.

Well, it’s obviously not for the benefit of the prisoner - this has to be done, because the alternative is that he gets to go around murdering the guards and the other prisoners.

The only other way out would be a rapid application of the death penalty. Remember, the goal is to render him harmless to others - whether or not he feels good about the process is really neither here nor there.

If he had wanted to be “socialized” he should have joined a book club, instead of going around killing helpless innocents.

 

[adrift]

Well, it’s obviously not for the benefit of the prisoner - this has to be done, because the alternative is that he gets to go around murdering the guards and the other prisoners.

The only other way out would be a rapid application of the death penalty. Remember, the goal is to render him harmless to others - whether or not he feels good about the process is really neither here nor there.

If he had wanted to be “socialized” he should have joined a book club, instead of going around killing helpless innocents.

That is true. However, the OP is basing her opinion on feelings of how terrible it is to execute. Her solution is even more terrible if you go on feelings.

 

[jmcrae]

That is true. However, the OP is basing her opinion on feelings of how terrible it is to execute. Her solution is even more terrible if you go on feelings.

I see your point.

 

[Debora123]

Actually, according to the US Catholic Bishops website, the Church seems to have been having some anti capital punishment thoughts for about 25 years now.
*
“In 1974, out of a commitment to the value and dignity of human life, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, by a substantial majority, voted to declare its opposition to capital punishment.” * (Or maybe they just voted on this based on their feelings as well??)

*“Reform or rehabilitation of the criminal cannot serve as a justification for capital punishment, which necessarily deprives the criminal of the opportunity to develop a new way of life that conforms to the norms of society and that contributes to the common good.” *

*We should not expect simple or easy solutions to what is a profound evil, and even less should we rely on capital punishment to provide such a solution.
*

usccb.org/prolife/issues/cappunish/index.shtml#church_docs

 

[Ender]

Actually, according to the US Catholic Bishops website, the Church seems to have been having some anti capital punishment thoughts for about 25 years now.

No one is in doubt about the bishops position on capital punishment. It is the reasons given in support of that position that are being challenged.

*“In 1974, out of a commitment to the value and dignity of human life, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, by a substantial majority, voted to declare its opposition to capital punishment.” *(Or maybe they just voted on this based on their feelings as well??)

Yes, because it certainly isn’t based on anything the Church has ever taught.

*“Reform or rehabilitation of the criminal cannot serve as a justification for capital punishment, which necessarily deprives the criminal of the opportunity to develop a new way of life that conforms to the norms of society and that contributes to the common good.” *

This might be an interesting point to debate except that reform, while it is a valid objective of punishment, is only a secondary one, therefore it cannot determine the just punishment for a particular crime.

We should not expect simple or easy solutions to what is a profound evil, and even less should we rely on capital punishment to provide such a solution.

• Nor should one expect much from non sequiturs - but they are indicative of the level of argument which has been resorted to to support this position.

Ender

 

[Debora123]

I feel better knowing that the vast majority of those bishops have the same views as I do on this issue. Like they said, it’s just not very pro life at all.

 

[Ender]

I feel better knowing that the vast majority of those bishops have the same views as I do on this issue. Like they said, it’s just not very pro life at all.

I’m sure it is comforting to know that your position is the same as the vast majority of bishops. This is surely one of those areas where ignorance is bliss because there is no good argument to sustain their position that supporting capital punishment is “not very pro life at all.”

Ender

 

[Debora123]

I’m sure it is comforting to know that your position is the same as the vast majority of bishops. This is surely one of those areas where ignorance is bliss because there is no good argument to sustain their position that supporting capital punishment is “not very pro life at all.”

Ender

I’m sure there are good arguments. I can think of many myself. There’s a whole section on this issue in the bishops website I posted. Maybe you can read it if you’re looking for good arguments?

 

[suissemissed]

Personally, I think the real thing to remember is that Catholics may differ extensively on when it is appropriate to apply the death penalty. But the one thing that cannot be said is that capital punishment itself is wrong in all cases - we would contradict the teachings of the Council of Trent if we did that, and they are infallible because they come from an Ecumenical Council. Even the current wording of the Catechism, incorrect or not, doesn’t go so far as to say that States can’t execute people, that executions are sinful. Executing murderers isn’t an immoral thing… and not executing them isn’t immoral either. The debate is about which choice is more appropriate in a given situation. And again, Catholics may differ extensively on that.

Think of it this way: It’s certainly not a sin to either eat or refuse to eat ice cream… but which is better for your health?

Just my :twocents:

 

[d97c]

Debora, using the term “pro-life” in the broadest sense…no one could kill a person breaking into your home to assault you…no one could take a life if a person was robbing you at gun point in a store…no one could take a life in a war situation. The Church FOR CENTURIES always taught that one is justified in taking a life in self defense, in a war and when it gives the state the DUTY to inflict capital punishment on a person who has forfeited the right to life, and the only PROPORTIONAL punishment is the death penalty, We execute for conviction of a murderer. There is a huge difference between abortion and the death penalty

1. The child is innocent–factually and legally and morally
2. The murderer (for example an obvious one—Adolph Hitler) is morally, legally and factually–GUILTY
   Had we caught Hitler, and convicted him, to fail to execute himwould have been the ultimate in disrespect to the 6 million Jews killed in WW 2.
   Catholics have the right to disagree with the conventional wisdom spouted by the modern church regarding the death penalty. I go with the Popes of centuries up to 1980. Was the Vatican wrong for centuries?? Were the Popes and the Catachism and all the writers and doctors of the church WRONG?? Who said they were wrong?? Were the executions inflicted for one thousand nine hundred and eighty years–for murder—wrong, sinful…what ???
   Debora…WHICH Popes do I believe?? What makes the Popes from 1980 to now MORE CORRECT???
   The answer is ----like the following quote from Pope Benedict said, it’s a matter of OPINION, …and its an opinion which a Catholic may disagree with …Abortion is a different issue . NO Catholic can be pro abortion !!!
   QUOTE FROM POPE BENEDICT-- 3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."
   priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm

 

[Ender]

I’m sure there are good arguments. I can think of many myself. There’s a whole section on this issue in the bishops website I posted. Maybe you can read it if you’re looking for good arguments?

I have read a number of documents from the USCCB and from individual bishops and I have yet to find a sustainable argument for their position based on Church teaching. If you can think of some, please, make them and let’s see how valid they are.

Ender

 

[Debora123]

Debora, using the term “pro-life” in the broadest sense…

Dude, I’m only using the exact same wording the bishops used in the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops website on the issue of death penalty. Maybe you should write to the Vatican and let them know our Bishops website is misleading?

 

[Debora123]

But the one thing that cannot be said is that capital punishment itself is wrong in all cases - we would contradict the teachings of the Council of Trent if we did that, and they are infallible because they come from an Ecumenical Council.

Again, maybe you should say that to the vast majority of bishops in this country who voted against it. I’m in agreement with them, so I have no complaints.