Death penalty question

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It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.

First sentence doctrinal, second prudential
 
Which more than anything else, demonstrates your fundamental difficulty in coming to the truth. The link you are using is at best a first draft compiled by ‘intratext editorial staff’. It is full of punctuation and line spacing errors. It does not include the Apostolic Letter and Apostolic Constitution which preface every other official version of the CCC around the world.
It does, however, include the copyright of the Libreria Editrice Vaticana which is the official publishing house of the Vatican and a date of 2003. Why should we assume that the later version is less valid than earlier ones, and what possible reason could we have for rejecting a version put out by the Vatican itself?
In the section headed ‘Legitimate Defense’ which gives context to the teaching on capital punishment, it curiously adds a new heading ‘Capital Punishment’ separating 2267 from the Legitimate Defense heading.
What is curious is your description. For someone who has obviously investigated this it is surprisingly inaccurate. The section on capital punishment actually includes both sections 2266 and 2267. The sub-heading Legitimate Defense is limited to sections 2263-2265, which are the only three that actually discuss…self defense.
It does not cite the quote from Evangelium Vitae in the official citations at the bottom of the page, only puts it in brackets beside it.
So? It is the same citation regardless of where it is located. Why do you cry foul when the citation is put in an even more prominent place?
It is obvious that the Vatican site is a collection of contributions from different sources around the world and it is equally as obvious that this English version created by ‘intratext editorial staff’ is not an official or even complete version of the Catechism.
Once again your description is surprisingly…inaccurate. As you surely know, at the bottom of the Table of Contents page, in the final section marked Credits, are these acknowledgements:

Printed source CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - Latin text copyright (c) Libreria Editrice Vaticana, Citta del Vaticano 1993**
Source of the electronic transcription** Internet
**ETML tagging **IntraText editorial staff

This is not quite what one would expect to see given your description.
Both are at the Vatican site. One is official, the other is not. Common sense will tell them apart.
Common sense would lead one to believe that the version the Vatican site directly links to is the official one.
Added to that the original Latin document Evangelium Vitae, quotes the official Catechism verse thus…“Si instrumenta incruenta sufficiunt ad vitas humanas defendendas ab aggressore et ad ordinem publicum tuendum simulque personarum securitatem, auctoritas his utatur instrumentis, utpote quae melius respondeant concretis boni communis condicionibus et sint dignitati personae humanae magis consentanea” (Catechismus Catholicae Ecclesiae, 2267).
According to the Latin version on the Vatican web site, that part of 2267 actually says this:Si autem instrumenta incruenta sufficiunt ad personarum securitatem ab aggressore defendendam atque protegendam, auctoritas his solummodo utatur instrumentis, utpote quae melius respondeant concretis boni communis condicionibus et sint dignitati personae humanae magis consentanea.
Now I can’t tell you what that says but I can at least note that the wording is different. Still, if you reject the English version on the Vatican site it should present no problems to reject their Latin version as well.
The official English translation at the Vatican site is…
What makes it the official version other than your preference that it be considered such? But this entire tempest is in a teapot. It is clear that the current Magisterium has indicated that bloodless methods of deterrence and punishment are preferred, but that does not make capital punishment any the less valid.

Ender
 
I have a question.
Why did Innocent I say " until now" .? And " so that we may not appear…" .?

It must be remembered that power was granted by God [to the magistrates], and to avenge crime by the sword was permitted. He who carries out this vengeance is God’s minister (Rm 13:1-4). Why should we condemn a practice that all hold to be permitted by God? We uphold, therefore, what has been observed until now, in order not to alter the discipline and so that we may not appear to act contrary to God’s authority.

(Innocent 1, Epist. 6, C. 3. 8, ad Exsuperium, Episcopum Tolosanum,
20 February 405, PL 20,495)

I do not mean to go anywhere in particular. I tried to find the letter to Exsuperium but I couldn’t .

So that we may not appear…sounds like an apparent good. I do.not to know .
He refers to it as a practice and discipline.
If and when you can,I would appreciate help to address it. Thanks!
 
No need to answer my previous post. It is pointless without the original in its original language from a reliable source.Thanks!
 
It does, however, include the copyright of the Libreria Editrice Vaticana which is the official publishing house of the Vatican and a date of 2003. Why should we assume that the later version is less valid than earlier ones, and what possible reason could we have for rejecting a version put out by the Vatican itself?
Anyone can see that it is not a ‘new version put out by the Vatican itself’. It’s a half baked, error ridden, intratext version with no real indication of the author except what are ‘intratext editorial staff’. The print source offered is CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - **Latin text **copyright (c) Libreria Editrice Vaticana, Citta del Vaticano 1993

That obviously refers to the first edition of the new Catechism rather than the newer 1997 version.
What is curious is your description. For someone who has obviously investigated this it is surprisingly inaccurate. The section on capital punishment actually includes both sections 2266 and 2267. The sub-heading Legitimate Defense is limited to sections 2263-2265, which are the only three that actually discuss…self defense.
None of the official versions of the Catechism have ever separated 2266 and 2267 away from the Legitimate Defense heading with a Capital Punishment heading. That speaks much of an agenda since not even the original Latin or French texts have such a thing.
Once again your description is surprisingly…inaccurate. As you surely know, at the bottom of the Table of Contents page, in the final section marked Credits, are these acknowledgements:
Printed source CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - Latin text copyright (c) Libreria Editrice Vaticana, Citta del Vaticano 1993**
Source of the electronic transcription** Internet
**ETML tagging **IntraText editorial staff
This is not quite what one would expect to see given your description.
As I noted above, why is the text taken from the earlier version of the Catechism (1993) rather than from the 1997 version? The Latin text from the same page which is from the later version of the CCC, has none of the strange omissions and additions that this poor error ridden version claim.
Common sense would lead one to believe that the version the Vatican site directly links to is the official one.
Common sense would look with normal unbiased eyes at the text, would compare it to the text from Evangelium Vitae, would look at the original Latin from the same page etc. etc… and clearly see it is not an official text. That’s how common sense works. What you are describing is the inability of a preprogrammed automaton to compute outside the box.
According to the Latin version on the Vatican web site, that part of 2267 actually says this:Si autem instrumenta incruenta sufficiunt ad personarum securitatem ab aggressore defendendam atque protegendam, auctoritas his solummodo utatur instrumentis, utpote quae melius respondeant concretis boni communis condicionibus et sint dignitati personae humanae magis consentanea.
Now I can’t tell you what that says but I can at least note that the wording is different. Still, if you reject the English version on the Vatican site it should present no problems to reject their Latin version as well.
The Latin translation perfectly accords with every official Catechism in print. It includes the Apostolic Letter and Apostolic Constititution, is free from punctuation and line spacing errors, does not add headings that are not seen in any official Catechism and cites Evangelium Vitae in the official citations list. What would lead a normal person to doubt its legitimacy?
What makes it the official version other than your preference that it be considered such?
And common sense. Compare the two. Which accords with every other official Catechism?
It is clear that the current Magisterium has indicated that bloodless methods of deterrence and punishment are preferred, but that does not make capital punishment any the less valid.
It makes it a cruel and unnecessary measure with no justification nowadays.
 
It doesn’t matter what Catechism translation is used. A doctrinal reason (“dignity”) is given in all, and the encyclical teaches the same. end of story
 
As I said, bloodless methods of deterrence and punishment are merely preferred; they are not required.

Ender
It is not ‘merely preferred’. It is warranted and ethical to desist from the practice in the light of modern penal advancement. Just as Aquinas’ infected limb is treatable with medication that allows for the limb to be saved and the body to remain whole… it would be unwarranted and unethical and in contravention to mans dignity to amputate the limb on principle alone.
 
It is not ‘merely preferred’.
This is all that 2267 is saying.
It is warranted and ethical to desist from the practice…
Yes it is; just as it is warranted and ethical to continue it.
… in the light of modern penal advancement.
Penal advancement has nothing to do with whether the nature of the punishment is appropriate for the nature of the crime. That is a matter of retributive justice that cannot change from age to age or place to place although it may be unwise to use it depending on circumstances.
Just as Aquinas’ infected limb is treatable with medication that allows for the limb to be saved and the body to remain whole… it would be unwarranted and unethical and in contravention to mans dignity to amputate the limb on principle alone.
This is where the analogy fails, because it is not unethical to apply a just penalty according to the principle that the severity of the punishment must be commensurate with the severity of the crime.

Ender
 
It doesn’t matter what Catechism translation is used. A doctrinal reason (“dignity”) is given in all, and the encyclical teaches the same. end of story
It is asserted that other means “better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person”, and this is why bloodless methods of deterrence and punishment are preferred, but preferences are not doctrines.

Ender
 
This is all that 2267 is saying.
Yes it is; just as it is warranted and ethical to continue it.
Penal advancement has nothing to do with whether the nature of the punishment is appropriate for the nature of the crime. That is a matter of retributive justice that cannot change from age to age or place to place although it may be unwise to use it depending on circumstances.
This is where the analogy fails, because it is not unethical to apply a just penalty according to the principle that the severity of the punishment must be commensurate with the severity of the crime.

Ender
Luckily we have the Popes themselves to give full Catholic context to the Catechism teachings.

“May the death penalty, an unworthy punishment still used in some countries, be abolished throughout the world.” (St John Paul II Prayer at the Papal Mass at Regina Coeli Prison in Rome, July 9, 2000).

“A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform. I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary.” (St John Paul II Homily at the Papal Mass in the Trans World Dome, St. Louis, Missouri, January 27, 1999).

“I express my hope that your deliberations will encourage the political and legislative initiatives being promoted in a growing number of countries to eliminate the death penalty and to continue the substantive progress made in conforming penal law both to the human dignity of prisoners and the effective maintenance of public order.” (Nov. 30, 2011 Pope Benedict)

All Christians and people of good will are thus called today to struggle not only for abolition of the death penalty, whether it be legal or illegal and in all its forms, but also to improve prison conditions, out of respect for the human dignity of persons deprived of their liberty. And this, I connect with life imprisonment,” (Oct. 23, 2014 Pope Francis)

**“Nowadays the death penalty is inadmissible, no matter how serious the crime committed,” **“It is an offence against the inviolability of life and the dignity of the human person, which contradicts God’s plan for man and society, and his merciful justice, and impedes the penalty from fulfilling any just objective. It does not render justice to the victims, but rather fosters vengeance.”

For the rule of law, the death penalty represents a failure, as it obliges the state to kill in the name of justice,… Justice can never be wrought by killing a human being.”

“With the application of the death penalty, the convict is denied the possibility to repent or make amends for the harm caused; the possibility of confession, by which a man expresses his inner conversion, and contrition, the gateway to atonement and expiation, to reach an encounter with God’s merciful and healing justice,”

The death penalty is contrary to the sentiment of humanitas and to divine mercy, which must be the model for human justice,” (Pope Francis March 20, 2015)

The position of the Church is that the death penalty has no place in todays world and must be eliminated.

It is not intrinsically evil but is an evil in today’s circumstances.
 
It is asserted that other means “better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person”, and this is why bloodless methods of deterrence and punishment are preferred, but preferences are not doctrines.

Ender
You will burn in hell for you opinion! Just kidding. 😃 But you are reading this but not getting it: “are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person”. That is a statement like “there are three Persons in God”. Its doctrinal. Its not the same as saying “examples of situations of self-defence are so rare that the death penalty should never be used”. The encyclical states the same in a different way. Its been a week and I am still not getting thru. Oh well
 
The position of the Church is that the death penalty has no place in todays world and must be eliminated.

It is not intrinsically evil but is an evil in today’s circumstances.
That is not the position of the Church. It doesn’t even suggest that it is an evil. Unnecessary, Yes, evil no. It doesn’t say that it should be eliminated but rarely used. 2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church** does not exclude **recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
 
That is not the position of the Church. It doesn’t even suggest that it is an evil. Unnecessary, Yes, evil no. It doesn’t say that it should be eliminated but rarely used. 2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
Perhaps the debate between you and LongingSoul is over the last 0.5% of cases. Do you agree that:
  • in most places/circumstances, the death penalty is **not **the only way of effectively defending human lives…
If yes, does it follow that it is wrong to use the death penalty in those places/circumstances?

[The latter question presupposes 2267 is doctrinal, rather than judement.]
 
Longing Soul

Have you asked the Holy See to take down the English text of the CCC that you disapprove of and to post, instead, a translation that enjoys your full approval?

If so, what response did you get?
 
Longing Soul

Have you asked the Holy See to take down the English text of the CCC that you disapprove of and to post, instead, a translation that enjoys your full approval?

If so, what response did you get?
There is a problem with the CCC that is linked to from the front page of the Vatican web site. It is a prior version. I compared the sections on homosexuality, aware that there had been a small change. Sure enough, the version LongingSoul has issue with is not the current catechism wording.

The current vsn of the CCC:
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial…

The vsn linked to by Vatican home page:
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial…

This latter text is from a previous edition of the CCC!

This web site error is astounding!

Note that the current/correct edition of the CCC is also on the Vatican website, but you will not find it by following the links from the front page. Using Google, or search on the Vatican site will find both editions.
 
There is a problem with the CCC that is linked to from the front page of the Vatican web site. It is a prior version. I compared the sections on homosexuality, aware that there had been a small change. Sure enough, the version LongingSoul has issue with is not the current catechism wording.

The current van:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial…
So let me ask you the same question. Have you told the people in charge of the Holy See website that they have made a mistake and need to correct it?
 
So let me ask you the same question. Have you told the people in charge of the Holy See website that they have made a mistake and need to correct it?
I discovered this error today. I looked on the website for a “contact us” link so I could inform them, but did not locate one. I will gladly let them know if I can locate a contact - wouldn’t you do the same?
 
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