Death Penalty the only way of protecting society?

[DL82]

As I understand it, the Church teaches that the death penalty should only be used where there is no other way of protecting society from violent criminals. Normally, this is used as a justification for very sparing use of the death penalty, or not at all in developed countries with a strong prison system.

However…

Prison doesn’t work - if prisons worked, the numbers in prisons would be going down, not up.

In terms of protecting people from crime and criminals, if you look at countries like Saudi Arabia, where the death penalty and other severe physical punishments are common, there is almost no crime - people leave their cars unlocked in the street! There are no drugs and no prostitution.

Is the widespread use of the death penalty (not just for murder, but for rape, attempted murder, child molesting, drug dealing, prostitution, etc.) the only real deterrent that would keep a country safe from crime and criminals?

I’m usually anti death penalty, because I believe there are other, better ways, but are there?

 

[dudleysharp]

You’ve definitely hit on something.

Pope John Paul II made serious errors in fact and logic within his anti death penalty writings. In addition, he overlooked the many biblical, theological and traditional Church teachings on the death penalty - such teachings overwhelm his inaccurate writings on the death penalty.

PJP II based his writings on defense of society, which is a penological consideration, not a religious one. By doing so he omitted justice. More importantly, he avoided the reality that the death penalty is a greater defense of society than lesser sentences and, by so doing, he has called for the sparing of guilty murderers and the sacrifice of more innocents.

We all know that living murderers, in prison, after escape or after our failures to incarcerate them, are much more likely to harm and murder, again, than are executed murderers.

No knowledgeable party questions that the death penalty has the most extensive due process protections in US criminal law. Therefore, it is logically conclusive, that actual innocents are more likely to be sentenced to life imprisonment and more likely to die in prison serving under that sentence, that it is that an actual innocent will be executed.

Thirdly, 10 recent studies find for death penalty deterrence. Some believe that all studies with contrary findings negate those 10 studies. They don’t. Studies which don’t find for deterrence don’t say no one is deterred, but that they cannot measure those deterred, if they are.

Ask yourself: “What prospect of a negative outcome doesn’t deter some?” There isn’t one, although committed anti death penalty folk may say the death penalty is the only one. However, the premier anti death penalty scholar accepts it as a given that the death penalty is a deterrent, but does not believe it to be a greater deterrent than a life sentence. I find the evidence compelling that death is feared more than life - even in prison.

In choosing to end the death penalty, or in choosing not implement it, some have chosen to put more innocents at risk.

 

[vern_humphrey]

There are people who will kill in prison. They will kill Corrections Officers. They will orchestrate from prison the killing of Corrections Officers families, and also judges, prosecutors, police and jury members.

What do you do with these people? Keep giving them one meaningless life sentence after another?

 

[melensdad]

Is the widespread use of the death penalty (not just for murder, but for rape, attempted murder, child molesting, drug dealing, prostitution, etc.) the only real deterrent that would keep a country safe from crime and criminals?

Is there a civilized nation that actually institutes a “widespread use of the death penalty?”

Honestly I do not think there is such a nation on earth. Certainly the USA is not an example of this because we have a patchwork of state laws regarding this topic, further within the state laws there is wide divergence of application of the death penalty. I do not know about other civilized nations and their application of the death penalty, but for the US there is no ‘widespread’ use.

 

[dudleysharp]

Is there a civilized nation that actually institutes a “widespread use of the death penalty?”

Honestly I do not think there is such a nation on earth. Certainly the USA is not an example of this because we have a patchwork of state laws regarding this topic, further within the state laws there is wide divergence of application of the death penalty. I do not know about other civilized nations and their application of the death penalty, but for the US there is no ‘widespread’ use.

Most countries use it sparingly. China is responsible for approximately 90% of thw worllds executions, I believe.

Japan and Singapore both have very low crime rates and do employ the death penalty, but quite sparingly.

 

[Amolibri]

Prison doesn’t work - if prisons worked, the numbers in prisons would be going down, not up.

Quite a naive statement. Do you think the prison system works in a vacuum? Prison populations are manipulated by states’ laws, and other factors of which we’re not aware. I’ve worked with counselors and librarians in prisons, and have seen the “warehousing” of people, instead of restorative, (yes, victim-oriented) justice and rehabilitation programs. It is beginning to change (if only in a token way) in New York.

Of course we must protect society from violent people, but putting thousands behind bars and guarding them, does nothing for the recidivism rate. These are human beings too…is this not a Christian tenet? Does not our church want us to visit the imprisoned? Help them to redeem themselves? You’ve really touched a nerve here. I don’t even want to get into the inequities of the Death Penalty. There are MANY groups that do that. one is: www.nyadp.org

May God bless you with an open mind to regard prisoners as human beings worthy of our prayers.:console:

 

[vern_humphrey]

Quite a naive statement. Do you think the prison system works in a vacuum? Prison populations are manipulated by states’ laws, and other factors of which we’re not aware. I’ve worked with counselors and librarians in prisons, and have seen the “warehousing” of people, instead of restorative, (yes, victim-oriented) justice and rehabilitation programs. It is beginning to change (if only in a token way) in New York.

Of course we must protect society from violent people, but putting thousands behind bars and guarding them, does nothing for the recidivism rate. These are human beings too…is this not a Christian tenet? Does not our church want us to visit the imprisoned? Help them to redeem themselves? You’ve really touched a nerve here. I don’t even want to get into the inequities of the Death Penalty. There are MANY groups that do that. one is: www.nyadp.org

May God bless you with an open mind to regard prisoners as human beings worthy of our prayers.:console:

I had a professor of criminology who had been chief sociologist for years in the Lousiana State Prison system. He used to say, “You can only rehabilitate a man if he was habilitated to begin with.”

In many cases, that condition doesn’t exist – there is no former non-criminal state to which you can restore the prisoner. People in prison often are not clean-cut American boys who made one mistate. They are there as a result of a lifetime of violent, anti-social behavior, and there is only so much you can do for them.

 

[Amolibri]

…and furthermore

"As America entered the new millennium we culminated the most punishing decade in our nation’s history. While the number of persons in jail and prison grew by 462,006 in the seven decades from 1910 to 1980, in the 1990s alone, the number of jail and prison inmates grew by an estimated 816,965. As the millennium turned, America’s prison and jail populations approached the 2 million mark, with that dubious distinction likely to be achieved within a year of the release of this report.

The cost of this massive growth in incarceration is staggering. Americans will spend nearly $40 billion on prisons and jails in the year 2000. Almost $24 billion of that will go to incarcerate 1.2 million nonviolent offenders.4 Meanwhile, in two of our nation’s largest states, California and New York, the prison budgets outstripped the budgets for higher education during the mid-1990s.

The number of people behind bars not only dwarfs America’s historical incarceration rates; it defies international comparisons as well. While America has about 5% of the world’s population, almost one in four persons incarcerated worldwide are incarcerated in the US."

excerpted from:
cjcj.org/pubs/poor/pp.html

 

[vern_humphrey]

…and furthermore

"As America entered the new millennium we culminated the most punishing decade in our nation’s history. While the number of persons in jail and prison grew by 462,006 in the seven decades from 1910 to 1980, in the 1990s alone, the number of jail and prison inmates grew by an estimated 816,965. As the millennium turned, America’s prison and jail populations approached the 2 million mark, with that dubious distinction likely to be achieved within a year of the release of this report.

The cost of this massive growth in incarceration is staggering. Americans will spend nearly $40 billion on prisons and jails in the year 2000. Almost $24 billion of that will go to incarcerate 1.2 million nonviolent offenders.4 Meanwhile, in two of our nation’s largest states, California and New York, the prison budgets outstripped the budgets for higher education during the mid-1990s.

The number of people behind bars not only dwarfs America’s historical incarceration rates; it defies international comparisons as well. While America has about 5% of the world’s population, almost one in four persons incarcerated worldwide are incarcerated in the US."

excerpted from:
cjcj.org/pubs/poor/pp.html

The tone is that this is wrong.

And indeed, if we were working with a clean sheet of paper, it would be wrong. But that’s not realistic – we don’t have a clean sheet. We have to work with the sheet that has been scribbled on by previous generations.

Our education system has failed. About 30% of children do not graduate high school – and in modern society, there is little hope for those children. Non-high school graduates are the only group that has lost ground economically in the last 30 years.

As I write this, there is a debate going on on TV, “Is it right to pay poor people for making good decisions?” The irony is that for decades we have paid them for making **bad **decisions! When people failed to get an education, we paid them. When people had children out of wedlock, we paid them. When people became alcoholics and drug addicts, we paid them.

We have sown the wind, and should not be surprised that we are now reaping the whirlwind.

 

[Amolibri]

Sir, your easy way of using the word “wrong”…gives quite an impression. What is your solution???
I am only pointing out that warehousing people has not worked EITHER!!! Why do you have such a negative attitude toward humanity? Paying people for making bad decisions??? I need examples.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sir, your easy way of using the word “wrong”…gives quite an impression. What is your solution???
I am only pointing out that warehousing people has not worked EITHER!!! Why do you have such a negative attitude toward humanity?

Ah, the old, “I can’t attack the post, so I will attack the poster” ploy.

First of all, for many criminals, there is no solution – beyond keeping them out of circulation until they’re too old to commit violent crimes.

Secondly, we need to educate all children, not just those who have affluent parents and live in “good” school districts.

Paying people for making bad decisions??? I need examples.

What part of this did you not understand?

When people failed to get an education, we paid them. When people had children out of wedlock, we paid them. When people became alcoholics and drug addicts, we paid them.

Saint Paul, in 1 Timothy, Chapter 5 tells us that excessive “charity” (or welfare as we call it nowadays) can have a deleterious impact on the recipients. He was right.

 

[Amolibri]

You are quite right about educating ALL children…I don’t see a viable plan to do this

You continue to say “we paid them”… what is the source of payment you refer to? Public assistance? Then say so. I ask again: what is your plan?

 

[vern_humphrey]

You are quite right about educating ALL children…I don’t see a viable plan to do this

And . . . ?

You continue to say “we paid them”… what is the source of payment you refer to? Public assistance? Then say so.

Gee – you didn’t understand that when I said

When people failed to get an education, we paid them. When people had children out of wedlock, we paid them. When people became alcoholics and drug addicts, we paid them.

???

I ask again: what is your plan?

1. Change the education paradigm – go to True Choice in Education, allowing the consumer (the parent) to control the quality.
2. Change the welfare paradigm – do not reward people for bad decisions. Regard those on welfare as public employees and require them to get an education, and to work with their children or lose welfare.
3. Take violent criminals out of circulation and keep them out.

 

[Amolibri]

Sounds simple enough…when do you announce your candidacy?

 

[puzzleannie]

I live in Texas. We have the death penalty. If it works, why are we building prisons at a faster rate than schools and hospitals.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sounds simple enough…when do you announce your candidacy?

I ran for Congress in '04.

When did you run?

 

[Amolibri]

I rest my case! Correct you are, Annie!
It does NOT work… www.nyadp.org

 

[DL82]

Prison doesn’t work - if prisons worked, the numbers in prisons would be going down, not up.

Quite a naive statement. Do you think the prison system works in a vacuum? Prison populations are manipulated by states’ laws, and other factors of which we’re not aware. I’ve worked with counselors and librarians in prisons, and have seen the “warehousing” of people, instead of restorative, (yes, victim-oriented) justice and rehabilitation programs. It is beginning to change (if only in a token way) in New York.

Of course we must protect society from violent people, but putting thousands behind bars and guarding them, does nothing for the recidivism rate. These are human beings too…is this not a Christian tenet? Does not our church want us to visit the imprisoned? Help them to redeem themselves? You’ve really touched a nerve here. I don’t even want to get into the inequities of the Death Penalty. There are MANY groups that do that. one is: www.nyadp.org

May God bless you with an open mind to regard prisoners as human beings worthy of our prayers.:console:

Amolibri, I actually agree with you here. I believe that a rehabilitative system is what we need. I’m almost playing devils advocate with my original statement.

On the one hand there is deterrence - if you are so poor you can’t afford to pay the rent and are facing your family being kicked out onto the street, you’ll do almost anything to avoid that. If, on the other hand, you have the threat of death by electrocution even for a crime like armed robbery - and if, to add to the deterrent factor, you have seen numerous of these executions because the government broadcasts them on prime-time TV (and death by electrocution is a particularly brutal way to die!), it might just stop you committing the crime.

This path would lead us to an extreme authoritarian state that could do anything it wanted in terms of social injustice because people would be too scared to redress the balance. Bizarrely, the people in America who are pro-Death-Penalty tend to be anti-authoritarian and against giving increased power to the state.

If we admit that we can’t go around forcing people who are in dire circumstances to obey out of fear, then that leaves us with the alternative of building social justice through better schools, a stronger, fairer economy, a more equitable distribution of wealth, a better social safety net.

Prison is the poor relation of both systems - we can pretend to be rehabilitating people when they’re really just sitting around doing nothing constructive, and at the same time we can pretend to be punishing them appropriate to their crimes even though the punishment clearly doesn’t work as a deterrent.

You got to pick one side or the other. I’m anti-Death-Penalty, pro-social reform and pro-rehabilitation. I’m really just setting out what the alternative view, taken to its’ logical conclusion, would look like. I don’t think that’s a world any of our pro-Death-Penalty free market right-wingers would want to see.

 

[dudleysharp]

**
Of course we must protect society from violent people, but putting thousands behind bars and guarding them, does nothing for the recidivism rate. Does not our church want us to visit the imprisoned? Help them to redeem themselves? I don’t even want to get into the inequities of the Death Penalty. There are MANY groups that do that. one is: www.nyadp.org**

May God bless you with an open mind to regard prisoners as human beings worthy of our prayers.:console:

Astounding naivite and ignorance. Imprisonment is a huge preventative for recitivism. Pedophiles don’t rape children in prison. Bank robbers, carjackers, rapists, etc., etc., are fairly well restricted in prison.

Yes, we wany criminals redeamed. But most of us are aware that criminals can go one of three ways, they can:

1. stay the same person - bad
2. become a better person - good
3. become a worse person - worse than bad.

And that is what happens. It is very important that we make sure criminals do not reoffend again and the we make a great effort to protect the innocent from known offenders.

Does not the Church want us to attend to the innocent vicitms and make sure that known offenders do not create new innocent vicitms?

You’d hardly know it though. There are countless prison ministeries, a virtual mountain of assistance for offenders, compared to the molehill supporting vicitms.

Of course, offenders are human beings, so were Adolph Hitler and Stalin, just as Mother Theresa was, but we can make distinctions, can’t we?

To use NYADP as a reliable source on the inequities of the death penalty is a sad joke.

Try some of these:

homicidesurvivors.com/categories/Dudley%20Sharp%20-%20Justice%20Matters.aspx

dpinfo.com
cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DPinformation.htm
clarkprosecutor.org/html/links/dplinks.htm
joshmarquis.blogspot.com/
lexingtonprosecutor.com/death_penalty_debate.htm
prodeathpenalty.com
yesdeathpenalty.com/deathpenalty_contents.htm
wesleylowe.com/cp.html

 

[Amolibri]

" we can pretend to be rehabilitating people when they’re really just sitting around doing nothing constructive, and at the same time we can pretend to be punishing them appropriate to their crimes even though the punishment clearly doesn’t work as a deterrent.":tiphat:

Thank you for your thoughts, DL.
This is what the people I work with are trying to take action against. The “system” is still one of counter-productive, counter constructive actions and attitudes…in general. BTW, I don’t deny the need for violent offenders to be separated from society.

There are many people working in the legal system and the mental health system who are making small strides. Wouldn’t it be great if C.O jobs turned into “rehabilitation sector” jobs??? Parole and probation in many places are just ‘gotcha’ jobs…waiting for parolees to screw up.

I know a few chaplains; one of them worked in the “death house” at a prison in our area,.until it was moved to another prison. He is a member of our chapter of NYADP. A former warden of a max. security prison is also an active member. He testifies that the burn out and emotional harm even to the Corr. officers working in death row is devastating.
I’ve also met a man who spent 13 years on death row in Oklahoma before being exonerated. His story is repeated many times since DNA evidence has been used.

A local college has funded a program for inmates to study for their bachelor’s degree…not an easy college to qualify for.
The recidivism rate among those students was less than 20%. (as opposed to over 60% for non-students. The stats. for those earning GED’s is almost as impressive.
www.nyadp.org