Death Penalty

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SingleMomMonica said:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church supports it. As a Catholic, I would think it is best not to be a “cafeteria” Catholic by taking only what you like about the Church and leaving the rest behind. Jesus was more of an “all or nothing” kinda guy. He even said, “I will spit out the lukewarm from My Mouth”.

We as Catholics can disagree with the each other about specific cases as to whether or not the death penalty is warranted for that particular situation, but we as Catholics don’t have a leg to stand on to say it should “always” or “never” be used, since the Church teaches it can be used in some instances - where it is clear who the guilty party is and that using the death penalty will protect the public from him/her.

As a Catholic I chose to believe the Churches teachings even those I don’t like or don’t understand. The Church has spoken on the Death Penalty, so I will shut up and obey her should I ever be placed on a Jury where the Death Penalty comes into play.
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By your reasoning, Catholic teacing has changed over the years. The current Catechism does not teach the same thing on the death penalty as was taught and believed during the middle ages. But, we know the teaching cannot change. So, I believe Shin is correct that the current view is pastoral and not dogmatic. Dogma does not change from time to time.
 
JBassist17 said:
I should have reread what I posted to avoid these misunderstandings. I was not making ad hominem attacks on the Popes of the Middle Ages, I was making the case that their use of the death penalty shouldn’t be taken as the standard of Catholic moral action, seeing as they did not have a wonderful track record in that.

As far as being a “cafeteria” Catholic, I do not believe you have the right to make such accusations, but will also rephrase my stance, in that case. While the Church holds that the death penalty is acceptable in cases where the guilty party has been found and the perpetrator is still a danger to the public, I would respond that there is no situation in our times where a person on trial can anymore be a legitimate threat to the public. I cannot imagine an instance in which this would be the case, and therefore see no reason why the death penalty should ever be undertaken.

All of God’s children should always be allowed the chance to repent before death, and setting that deadline is never our right.
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Unfortunately, you are wrong. People with life sentences kill fellow inmates and guards all the time. They remain a threat until death.
 
Thanks be to God. 🙂

This will offend some people, however, as to the Singaporean question, Singapore, like some other Asian countries, uses caning as punishment.

I’ll quote the Wikipedia: ‘Caning is used widely as a form of legalised corporal punishment in the island-state of Singapore. It can be subdivided into several contexts, namely domestic/private, school, reform school, military and judicial.’

I heartily believe incorporating this into our prison system would have a very good effect on criminals and crime.

Those who would oppose this too I might add, have no choice but to oppose it only on prudential grounds as the saints caned -themselves-, as well as others, adult and juvenile, for our good witness, and Christ whipped the money changers out of the temple, amongst many other examples. 🙂

And I will note that corporeal mortification is one of the calls and virtues for Christians in the Church – when we sin through the flesh, we are called to do penance with both soul and the flesh, not only one.

So we should do well to consider furthering as much as possible the ability to administer corporal punishment. Though I might add, things have gotten so bad, that merely to admit you favor it can have DYS at your door in some places ready to steal your children.
 
We are simply obliged to accept the Church teaching that it might be necessary in instances so rare to be almost non-existent.
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Is this part of the Catechims pastoral or Dogmatic. If pastoral, we can take it or leave it. If Dogmatic, we have to believe it. right?
 
Yes, regarding prison guards – I knew one. He told me about what it was like to be one…

It was Hell. Literally. Hell on earth, a place populated by demons under the guise of men, where the slightest sign of weakness from the guards could and would mean a life (he had lost friends). Rape. Sodomy. Beatings. The strong over the weak.

You had to be cold and hard and threaten violent response for anything (all this is under the table but the only way to survive).

Like animals… no worse than animals… Some of the prisons of today. When people joke about prison and sodomy… I think… these people, should be thrown in prison, because they do not care about the Hell it is, nor take care to fix it.

God help us and may the prisons be reformed.
 
Even though a society may have the means to protect itself by incarcerating rather than executing a criminal, whether or not the law results in sufficient protection is another matter.

A court can impose a sentence of “life in prison,” but it is the Department of Corrections that decides when an inmate actually gets out. And most state laws do provide for parole after a certain number of years. So “life” doesn’t really mean life.

I know of a family whose daughter was killed by a serial killer who killed at least four people and was sentenced to four life terms, to be served consecutively. Yes, he keeps coming up for parole. Each time, they make a trip to the prison to argue against letting him out.
 
expectthebest said:
By your reasoning, Catholic teacing has changed over the years. The current Catechism does not teach the same thing on the death penalty as was taught and believed during the middle ages. But, we know the teaching cannot change. So, I believe Shin is correct that the current view is pastoral and not dogmatic. Dogma does not change from time to time.
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Cardinal Dulles expressed the same understanding of the prudential nature of this teaching in 2001 in an article titled Catholicism and Capital Punishment.

*Like the Pope, the bishops do not rule out capital punishment altogether, but they say that it is not justifiable as practiced in the United States today. In coming to this **prudential *conclusion, the magisterium is not changing the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine remains what it has been: that the State, in principle, has the right to impose the death penalty on persons convicted of very serious crimes.

What is in the Catechism in 2267 is JPII’s opinion as expressed in Evangelium Vitae in 1995; prior to that there is nothing in Church history supporting that position. It is worth remarking that the Vatican had the death penalty on its own books until 1968 ('69?).

Ender
 
No I take it back, I would not throw even people who said that into those prisons. A tour maybe, but no one should be in a place like that.

Death penalty… honestly is more merciful. And more chance for a soul perhaps.
 
expectthebest said:
By your reasoning, Catholic teacing has changed over the years. The current Catechism does not teach the same thing on the death penalty as was taught and believed during the middle ages. But, we know the teaching cannot change. So, I believe Shin is correct that the current view is pastoral and not dogmatic. Dogma does not change from time to time.
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Sorry, but by “my reasoning” the Catholic Teaching has NOT Changed over the years!

**The Catechims teaching is identical to the teaching of the Middle Ages…the Death Penalty is a legitament means of punishment. Period! **

Please reference 1 document produced by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages which refutes the current Catechism of the Catholic Church - this is rhetorical of course, because there isn’t any! The Church HAS NOT CHANGED HER TEACHING on this issue. Death Penalty was used then as a legitament means of punishment and the CCC today continues to teach that it still is!
 
SingleMomMonica said:
Sorry, but by “my reasoning” the Catholic Teaching has NOT Changed over the years!

**The Catechims teaching is identical to the teaching of the Middle Ages…the Death Penalty is a legitament means of punishment. Period! **

Please reference 1 document produced by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages which refutes the current Catechism of the Catholic Church - this is rhetorical of course, because there isn’t any! The Church HAS NOT CHANGED HER TEACHING on this issue. Death Penalty was used then as a legitament means of punishment and the CCC today continues to teach that it still is!
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What I’m trying to say is that the means in which it is used is opinion in the Catechims. Not Dogma. You are correct in what you describe as the Dogma above.
 
Shin said:
Death penalty… honestly is more merciful. And more chance for a soul perhaps.
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“And more chance for a soul perhaps?” Are you saying that you believe through one’s actions they can remove the God-given soul from within? I will not argue that there are prisons that may seem like Hell on earth, with sodomy, rape, etc, but that does NOT, in any way, justify other human beings, who are fundamentally just as flawed as the prisoners themselves, taking their lives.

It can be followed with the same logic that suicide is condemned: to be so proud as to take one’s life out of the belief that the current situation cannot possibly be remedied is to completely throw out all faith and trust in God. If He can redeem us by dying, turn bread and wine into flesh and blood, and work HIS WILL through everyday sinners like you and me, then He can most certainly save the souls of mortally sinful individuals like in the worst prisons, and it is therefore NOT our right to determine when that process has reached it’s conclusion, no matter how hellish our world becomes. He will end it on His terms, not ours, and that goes for individuals as well.
 
JBassist17 said:
I will not argue that there are prisons that may seem like Hell on earth, with sodomy, rape, etc, but that does NOT, in any way, justify other human beings, who are fundamentally just as flawed as the prisoners themselves, taking their lives.

Immates on Death Row are, unlike general population, kept in individual cells - taken out individually for showering and to the yard and they eat alone in their cell. As such they are not in any danger or jeapordy of sodomy, rape, etc. They live in solitude which is condusive to a life of prayer and repentence. Remember that the majority of those on Death Row are not killed as was their sentence, but die of natural causes while awaiting their sentence to be carried out.
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tmorely:
The Death penalty was considered a valid means of punishment then and the CCC still says it is a valid means of punishment. This means there is NO Change!
 
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SingleMomMonica:
Duly noted, I was just agreeing because I am ignorant of whether or not such acts are truly as rampant and dangerous as he had pointed out. I’m not doubting it, and I’m not confirming it, for the sake of the argument I was agreeing. Good point on the Death Row inmates, though.
 
I certainly understand the position of Catholics who oppose the death penalty (along with most if not all American bishops), and that they do so for a variety of reasons. In my case, however, the more I read what the Church has said about it the more firmly I believe in the appropriateness of execution as a just punishment.

I am not interested in the practical arguments against it: it’s not applied equitably, the innocent may be executed, whatever. I’m not saying these are not valid concerns, only that they are not moral arguments per se but are practical condemnations of particular judicial practices. I am interested only in the specifically moral nature of capital punishment: is it just; is it merciful; is it necessary.

Based on my understanding of Church teaching for the first 1995 years, the answers are yes to all.

Ender
 
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SingleMomMonica:
Yes, these inmates are kept away from the public at great cost to all of us and the truely needy. Should any cost be accepted in order to keep these people away from the rest of the population? What about the guards? Their lives are in danger with these people every day.
 
thistle said:
We are simply obliged to accept the Church teaching that it might be necessary in instances so rare to be almost non-existent.
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I do not accept that it should be limited to those essentially non-existent situations. The primary objective of punishment is not the protection of society but the redress of the disorder caused by the crime. Crime merits punishment; the greater the crime, the more severe the punishment must be.

Ender
 
Ender said:
I do not accept that it should be limited to those essentially non-existent situations. The primary objective of punishment is not the protection of society but the redress of the disorder caused by the crime. Crime merits punishment; the greater the crime, the more severe the punishment must be.

Ender
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Exactly, that is my whole issue with the modern anti-death penalty stance. Through their own actions in braking the Law of Man and God, they have forfeit their own right to life. (Aquinas talks about this.) There is justice and mercy in carrying out the biblical and historical penalty. The Apostles upheld this for the Roman Empire, how different in moral terms is ancient Rome than our own society?

Personally, I feel that by trying to toss the rightful execution of criminals in with the murder of innocent Children is a crime against the Innocents themselves that thought no fault of their own been deprived of a basic human right to life. Being deprived of a right and forfeiting a right by your own actions are not even comparable.

Also consider the historical background of our previous Pope, in Nazi Poland people were executed not as punishment for their crimes, but for political means! In light of this I could see how he might have a very soft opinion on how it should be used that is not necessarily in accord with the the vast majority of Catholic thought on the mater.

I think the US Bishops tend to use it as a cop out, spending time effort and money on the easy popular “evil” instead of focusing all that attention on the true, but controversial evil, that is abortion.
 
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