Death penalty

[Lui]

I see a lot threads about abortion. What is your opinion on death penalty? Shouldn’t death penalty be against Catholic faith too?

 

[Hastrman]

I see a lot threads about abortion. What is your opinion on death penalty? Shouldn’t death penalty be against Catholic faith too?

No. Executing the guilty is not intrinsically evil. Killing the innocent is.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I see a lot threads about abortion. What is your opinion on death penalty? Shouldn’t death penalty be against Catholic faith too?

Of all civilized nations, only the USA still accepts death penalty.
Has it diminish the criminality? From the statistics, I do not see.
A killer kills, a civilized society does not. Otherwise, we are on the same boat: we rob the robbers, we kill the killers, we rape the rapists, we lower at the same level. Muslims punish the criminal’s member that did the crime: the hand of the robber and so on.
We must be different and show that we are not at the same level. Otherwise, if you what criminals do because they do, we become a society of criminals.
But no. We are not a society of criminals.
So, we must think on recuperating criminals and not killing them.
Prisons dont do much to recuperate criminals.
But, with the discovery of new drugs by psychiatrists, but new methods of recuperation, I think society could do much better.

Nevertheless, do not join abortion with death penalty. Nothing to do with each other…

 

[Lui]

Of all civilized nations, only the USA still accepts death penalty.

I noticed that the United States is the only western country that stills has the death penalty.

Nevertheless, do not join abortion with death penalty. Nothing to do with each other…

Why? For me both are against the fifth Commandment ‘You shall not kill’, or am I missing something here?

 

[Hastrman]

I noticed that the United States is the only western country that stills has the death penalty.

Why? For me both are against the fifth Commandment ‘You shall not kill’, or am I missing something here?

He said civilized. Because of course Japan and South Korea are not civilized.

And the fifth Commandment, in the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, says murder. All those Leviticus commandments where death is the penalty wouldn’t make a lot of sense otherwise, would they?

 

[Lui]

He said civilized. Because of course Japan and South Korea are not civilized.

I didn’t correct him. I just pointed out that I noticed that the United States is the only Western country that has the death penalty. In what way is Japan NOT civilized btw? I don’t understand what you mean or was that ironic on purpose to point out that The USA ISN’T the only civilized country that still has the death penalty? If so I agree.

And the fifth Commandment, in the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, says murder. All those Leviticus commandments where death is the penalty wouldn’t make a lot of sense, would they?

For me the death penalty is a form of murder. There is no reason to kill the person. He can be kept in prison for life. What specific reason is there to kill the person?

 

[Joe_5859]

I noticed that the United States is the only western country that stills has the death penalty.

Of course, that – in and of itself – is no argument. Morality isn’t dictated by public policy of the majority of first world nations.

Why? For me both are against the fifth Commandment ‘You shall not kill’, or am I missing something here?

Actually, you’re not missing anything. The Catechism states:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.” [John Paul II, Evan*gelium vitae 56.]

The Church has definitely been a strong supporter of getting rid of the death penalty. The US Bishops have been quite vocal about it as well: usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/death-penalty-capital-punishment/

As Hastrman pointed out, the main difference between abortion and the death penalty is the fact that the unborn are innocent. The Church doesn’t speak of the two in the same way. As the CCC admits, Church teaching “does not exclude recourse to the death penalty”. But it has been pretty clear from the recent popes and bishops that their manifest will is that it truly be a last resort and that – with today’s capabilities to imprison even dangerous people indefinitely-- it is almost never necessary to use it.

 

[Hastrman]

As Hastrman pointed out, the main difference between abortion and the death penalty is the fact that the unborn are innocent. The Church doesn’t speak of the two in the same way. As the CCC admits, Church teaching “does not exclude recourse to the death penalty”. But it has been pretty clear from the recent popes and bishops that their manifest will is that it truly be a last resort and that – with today’s capabilities to imprison even dangerous people indefinitely-- it is almost never necessary to use it.

The recent popes and bishops know no more about criminology and corrections than they do about astrophysics or entomology—the Magisterium’s authority only applies to faith and morals.

The US outlawed the death penalty as “cruel and unusual” for a while, and the crime rate skyrocketed. We brought it back, it went back down.

Sorry, empirical evidence says we need the death penalty, at least in this country.

 

[Lui]

Of course, that – in and of itself – is no argument. Morality isn’t dictated by public policy of the majority of first world nations.

Sorry, it wasn’t supposed to be an argument. I just mentioned that on the side while I looked up which Nations still have the death penalty. I was a totally objective observation.

As Hastrman pointed out, the main difference between abortion and the death penalty is the fact that the unborn are innocent. The Church doesn’t speak of the two in the same way. As the CCC admits, Church teaching “does not exclude recourse to the death penalty”. But it has been pretty clear from the recent popes and bishops that their manifest will is that it truly be a last resort and that – with today’s capabilities to imprison even dangerous people indefinitely-- it is almost never necessary to use it.

I didn’t intend to compare the two directly. I just noticed that people often speak of abortion issues but never about the death penalty. As a Catholic it is not up to us to decide who deserves punishment of death and who doesn’t, is my view.

I just suspect that actions are often regarded as sins depending on what certain political parties stand for. If Conservatives are against abortion and gay marriage these two topics are a sin but if Conservatives are pro death penalty, then that is justified and not a sin.
Like you said, it is almost never necessary to use it. Most countries NEVER use it so I don’t get how a Catholic can justify it ever.

 

[Hastrman]

I didn’t correct him. I just pointed out that I noticed that the United States is the only Western country that has the death penalty. In what way is Japan NOT civilized btw? I don’t understand what you mean or was that ironic on purpose to point out that The USA ISN’T the only civilized country that still has the death penalty? If so I agree.

Yes, it was ironic.

For me the death penalty is a form of murder. There is no reason to kill the person. He can be kept in prison for life. What specific reason is there to kill the person?

Honestly, it doesn’t matter what it is “for you”, since that’s not what it is for the Church or for natural law. There is a perfectly good reason for us to use the death penalty: one entire party of our politics, and the one that controls the entirety of the media and schools, is dedicated to abolishing not only the death penalty, but life sentences, and pretty much all criminal sentencing in general. Every time they get into power, brutal murderers and rapists are set free, and the people suffer.

 

[Lui]

Honestly, it doesn’t matter what it is “for you”, since that’s not what it is for the Church or for natural law. There is a perfectly good reason for us to use the death penalty: one entire party of our politics, and the one that controls the entirety of the media and schools, is dedicated to abolishing not only the death penalty, but life sentences, and pretty much all criminal sentencing in general. Every time they get into power, brutal murderers and rapists are set free, and the people suffer.

No, there is not any good reason to use the death penalty. Why is the crime rate in many countries that doesn’t have the death penalty much lower than in the USA who has the death penalty with your logic?
I suspect Catholic faith is being misused to support the Republicans.

 

[Hastrman]

No, there is not any good reason to use the death penalty. Why is the crime rate in many countries that doesn’t have the death penalty much lower than in the USA who has the death penalty with your logic?
I suspect Catholic faith is being misused to support the Republicans.

That last line is argumentum ad hominem. That is a fallacy. I assume it means you are conceding you have lost the argument.

The reason our crime rate is so much higher is that our average age is 35.2—until recently 32.3. The average age in Germany is 42.6.

But while we’re at it, here are the Interpol crime statistics for four countries, from 2001, per 100 000 population:
4161 – US
7736 – Germany
6941 – France
9927 – England and Wales

Hint: ours is the lowest one.

Now admittedly that is the total crime rate, not the violent crime rate, but here’s another interesting statistic: the murder rate in the US is now 5.5 per 100 000. In 1980 it was 10.2. What changed? Partly, our population got older on average.

But we also cracked down on crime, several states that had abolished the death-penalty bringing it back. In addition, several states legalized concealed-carry firearms licenses, which drop the rate for all violent crime by 2% every year that they’re legal.

The statistics do not support your position.

 

[Lui]

The statistics do not support your position.

Is the murder rate that deserves Capital Punishment higher in Germany, GB, France? What about the other countries that don’t have death penalty: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, Finland, Luxembourg, Italy, Canada to name a few. Is the murder rate in those countries also higher than in the USA

 

[Ben_F]

No, there is not any good reason to use the death penalty. Why is the crime rate in many countries that doesn’t have the death penalty much lower than in the USA who has the death penalty with your logic?
I suspect Catholic faith is being misused to support the Republicans.

I´ve never seen a dead murderer commit murder again. I´m not too enthused about paying room and board for a life time for a serial killer. The best prisons aren´t 100% secure. If you kill innocent babies, why not serial killers? Better to protect the innocent, and punish the guilty. God bless:thumbsup:

 

[Joe_5859]

But we also cracked down on crime, several states that had abolished the death-penalty bringing it back. In addition, several states legalized concealed-carry firearms licenses, which drop the rate for all violent crime by 2% every year that they’re legal.

The statistics do not support your position.

First, I presume you are familiar with the old adage that correlation does not imply causation. Simply because crime went down in the same time frame as the death penalty was reinstituted does not mean there is necessarily a causal relationship between the two.

Second, even if there was a clear, unmistakable causal relationship, that still wouldn’t be moral justification for using the death penalty. The Church’s moral teaching is pretty clear that the ends never justifies the means. Reducing crime (particularly violent crime) is a good and noble end. But we are not allowed to use evil means to reach that end. The death penalty is allowed in Catholic moral teaching when it is necessary to protect society from aggressors. It is not to be used as a teaching tool to scare off would-be criminals. If that’s all we needed, why not come up with something else like chopping off their hands, or disfiguring them with hydrochloric acid? We wouldn’t do such things because that is not in keeping with the dignity of the human person.

The bishops do not need to be experts in criminology. The dignity of the human person is their purview, and that is what this issue is fundamentally about. So I feel pretty good about standing with them on this issue.

 

[Hastrman]

Second, even if there was a clear, unmistakable causal relationship, that still wouldn’t be moral justification for using the death penalty. The Church’s moral teaching is pretty clear that the ends never justifies the means. Reducing crime (particularly violent crime) is a good and noble end. But we are not allowed to use evil means to reach that end. The death penalty is allowed in Catholic moral teaching when it is necessary to protect society from aggressors. It is not to be used as a teaching tool to scare off would-be criminals. If that’s all we needed, why not come up with something else like chopping off their hands, or disfiguring them with hydrochloric acid? We wouldn’t do such things because that is not in keeping with the dignity of the human person.

The bishops do not need to be experts in criminology. The dignity of the human person is their purview, and that is what this issue is fundamentally about. So I feel pretty good about standing with them on this issue.

Okay, so when is it necessary to use the death penalty? Supposedly our society has the resources to do that; what condition would a society have to be in for it not to have those resources? Remember, in 1905 only one murder in 17 involved rape; now 2 in 5 do. But apparently they needed the death penalty more than us.

The bishops claim that conditions where it is necessary do not exist. Is not the conditions relating to crime and punishment “criminology”? I demand to know what their basis for saying it is, and not one of them has ever offered it.

My great-grandfather was excommunicated—by the Pope—merely for wanting his homeland to be independent of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Forgive me if I do not share your childlike faith in the incorruptibility of bishops vis-a-vis worldly politics.

But fine. We’ll concede the death penalty is not necessary. So why aren’t you actively campaigning for harsher non-capital sentences, for more police, for less leeway in plea-bargaining, for every aspect of victims’ rights other than the death penalty?

Because you don’t mean it.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Had there been no death penalty, there would have been no salvation. To be totally against the death penalty is to be against the teachings of the Bible, because the death penalty is very explicitly called for several time in scripture.

 

[Lui]

If you kill innocent babies, why not serial killers? Better to protect the innocent, and punish the guilty. God bless:thumbsup:

I don’t understand your logic? “If you kill innocent babies, why not serial killers?” doesn’t make any sense to me. As a Catholic you shouldn’t kill any of the two options. A serial killer can be locked up in a high security prison for life. Why does he need to be executed? Your argument that no prison is 100% secure as a justification is a bit weak if you ask me.

Had there been no death penalty, there would have been no salvation. .

Gimme a break! That’s the weakest argument in history.

 

[Hastrman]

Gimme a break! That’s the weakest argument in history.

Actually, no, Christ’s death and resurrection are salvation, and his death was an execution.

 

[Ender]

As a Catholic it is not up to us to decide who deserves punishment of death and who doesn’t, is my view.

This is incorrect. The Church has always supported the right of nations to impose the death penalty for serious crime.

If Conservatives are against abortion and gay marriage these two topics are a sin but if Conservatives are pro death penalty, then that is justified and not a sin.

Abortion and gay “marriage” are sins because that’s how the Church defines them. Use of the death penalty is not a sin because the Church says it isn’t - and has consistently said so for 2000 years.

Ender