Death penalty

[triumphguy]

There is a difference between blaming women for the fall and saying women are not eqaul to men.

You also do a great disservice to all the missionaries who risked their lives to bring the Gospel to the african people.

But this is the way such discussion usually goes. When people try and twist church teaching to agree with their personal opinions it invariably leads to them a laundry list of the “sins” of the Church in the past and how the Church needs to change to be “relevant” in todays age. You see those promoting female ordination and homosexual marriage make the same claims about the Church “changing” over time and how this is an area they need to “change” The only difference is you seem to claim the church already has changed its teaching on Capital punishment when in fact it has not.

Thanks for being incensed on the behalf of missionaries, but I don’t do any disservice to the Missionaries since they were not the one’s writing the documents. I have an Uncle who sacrificed his health and suffers from malarial attacks twice a year because of his time as a missionary in Africa, and an Aunt who worked with lepers in Africa in the midst of a war zone, so I respect the them greatly.

The Church HAS developed its teaching in certain areas - it’s got NOTHING to do with a laundry list of sins, and everything to do with a developing understanding.

And some truths are ETERNAL - the ontological argument for the ordination of a male only priesthood seems eternal to me - so you’ve got me wrong there too.

 

[triumphguy]

We punish by taking away things that people value such as liberty or property. **By punishing a criminal with death, are not we likewise implying that life has value?**The problem isn’t violence in the media, the problem is the irresponsible parents who let their 10 year old kids see movies and play video games meant for a more mature audience.

It depends if we dehumanize the criminal, ourselves and society by doing that.

 

[starshiptrooper]

It depends if we dehumanize the criminal, ourselves and society by doing that.

The keyword here is “if”.

 

[HelenRose]

I am fully pro life. But I think the distinction is an innocent life versus an evil and dangerous life.

A man beats, rapes and kills someone. I fail to see the question frankly. I tend to view letting him live as a travesty of justice. I focus on the victim of the crime. And I think a big part of it comes from so many of us living somewhere good where we truly don’t see much evil. When you someday come face to face with evil it is then you understand.

Biblical reasons… most of the OT plus the fact that when at the last supper Christ asked for swords Peter says “I got two right here” …

And I am somewhat puzzled myself how the Church came around to no death penalty when historically it seemed quite ok with it.

Quite possibly in the past there weren’t the secure prisons. I personally am opposed to the death penalty. Not so much for the sake of the one accused but for those who may be innocent.

To compare the death penalty to abortion does not make sense to me. A man or woman has a voice, a lawyer and on the whole a reasonable chance within the law to plead his or her case.

An innocent unborn baby has no voice and no way to defend his or her life. Totally helpless, unwanted and unloved. To me this is a horror. Not mention that there may be a hundred or so executions a year but how can you compare that to the more than a million babies murdered each year in the United States alone.

There is no justification for this. We are in every sense of the word sacrificing our babies to a false god.

 

[triumphguy]

The keyword here is “if”.

And we do…

 

[pnewton]

The keyword here is “if”.

I think we are not being honest if we do not realize this effect, just like we are not being honest if we do not acknowledge that the death penalty is a greater demonstration of justice. There are few actions that do not have some sort of double effect.

 

[pnewton]

.Do you seriously have a problem with a movie like High Noon? …It is not violence for the sake of violence, but violence to uphold justice, and that is something that is justified in both our stories and the real world.

No. I did not say that I had a problem with “High Noon”.

I think video games are a far worse problem, as they do not convey any message. I think revenge themes moviese and those with gratuitous violence are anything but mature. I will not go movie by movie, though.

 

[starshiptrooper]

And we do…

Prove it.

No. I did not say that I had a problem with “High Noon”.

You implied that I thought violence was a more mature form of entertainment. I was simply trying to clarify the situation.

I think video games are a far worse problem, as they do not convey any message. I think revenge themes moviese and those with gratuitous violence are anything but mature.

I said nothing to contradict that.

 

[triumphguy]

Prove it…

You prove we don’t.

I can prove we do - I doubt you could prove we don’t.

 

[pnewton]

You prove we don’t.

I can prove we do - I doubt you could prove we don’t.

It is unprovable, but consider the evidence.

The person is strapped down on a table.
The injection is done by machine.
He is not permitted any family or loved ones with him when he dies.
There is an audience of witnessed sealed behind glass.

Does this sound de-humanizing, or does it sound like he is being treated as having human dignity?

 

[Ender]

It is unprovable, but consider the evidence.

The person is strapped down on a table.
The injection is done by machine.
He is not permitted any family or loved ones with him when he dies.
There is an audience of witnessed sealed behind glass.

Does this sound de-humanizing, or does it sound like he is being treated as having human dignity?

Describe a dignified way of killing a person. The Vatican States had their own executioner who severed a criminal’s head with an axe - or, depending on the crime, bashed their heads in with a huge hammer - all in public in front of huge crowds. It is hard to make a case that lethal injection is worse than that.

Ender

 

[pnewton]

Describe a dignified way of killing a person.

Exactly! It can’t be done. The mere act of killing takes something away from us. Let me state again that this is not an argument against the death penalty, at least by itself. But I think we need to be aware of the cost and accept it if one is going to support the death penalty.

Likewise, imprisoning people also can have this effect, but I think that can be overcome. On this, I do speak with experience.

 

[triumphguy]

It is unprovable, but consider the evidence.

The person is strapped down on a table.
The injection is done by machine.
He is not permitted any family or loved ones with him when he dies.
There is an audience of witnessed sealed behind glass.

Does this sound de-humanizing, or does it sound like he is being treated as having human dignity?

Just from the few years I worked in prison I witnessed the dehumanizing of both staff and inmates. I myself changed over the years to the point where I had to leave the ministry.

When a system’s goal is maximum security for the least amount of money, and the staff and their well-being are routinely undermined by the system, and the inmates are treated like cattle for the sake of a few dollars then fear and punishment become the prime motivators - for both staff and inmates.

And this is in Canada with a less punitive approach than the USA, and with no death penalty.

When you compound this with the socio-economic factors you can see systemic injustice at play.

Yes that sounds like social worker speak - but walk around a Canadian prison - 30% of the inmates are aboriginal. 5% of the Canadian population are aboriginal. Most of the aboriginal prison population are there because drugs and addiction fueled whatever crime they were caught for. Why are our First Nations people so over represented?

I could write a paper on it. It comes down to being dispossessed of land and culture and religion and language - if that happened in Rwanda we would call it genocide.

The next 70% - many are immigrants, most are poor, uneducated and fatherless and many of them are also addicts - or mentally ill.

BTW - when I saw this first hand I enrolled in University for an education degree and worked full time at the prison while attending full-time at University. I believed that we need to reach kids BEFORE they get into jail, 'cos it won’t happen after.

 

[triumphguy]

Exactly! It can’t be done. The mere act of killing takes something away from us. Let me state again that this is not an argument against the death penalty, at least by itself. But I think we need to be aware of the cost and accept it if one is going to support the death penalty.

Likewise, imprisoning people also can have this effect, but I think that can be overcome. On this, I do speak with experience.

You are right - it’s not just about the inmate.

If the system is not just, humane, transparent and truly fair then justice isn’t being done, and harm is being done to everyone involved.

 

[starshiptrooper]

You prove we don’t.

You are the one who made the ridiculous claim, not me, the you have to prove it. I am under no obligation to disprove it. Incidentally, that is the way the justice system works in the US.

I can prove we do - I doubt you could prove we don’t.

Start providing the proof then.

 

[triumphguy]

You are the one who made the ridiculous claim, not me, the you have to prove it. I am under no obligation to disprove it. Incidentally, that is the way the justice system works in the US.Start providing the proof then.

It’s not a ridiculous claim. It’s a well known assertion.

Read my own post above for a few ideas of where I would go with this. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10362097&postcount=94

We are not operating under a justice system, but on a forum. I’m not suing you or charging you with a crime. If you are really interested in the issue then do some research, and IF you do some research you will find all the proof you need to support my assertion.

If you are not really interested in the issue, but are merely promoting your POV, then all the evidence I bring to the table will just be ignored or discounted.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

I’ve generally heard people on here state that all life should be valued equally, and that it should not be judged through a utilitarian point of view. If this is so, how could you possibly support the death penalty, since it assumes the value of a life should be based on the actions of an individual rather than that all life should be valued the same?

 

[BroomWagon]

I’ve generally heard people on here state that all life should be valued equally, and that it should not be judged through a utilitarian point of view. If this is so, how could you possibly support the death penalty, since it assumes the value of a life should be based on the actions of an individual rather than that all life should be valued the same?

The reasoning could be “an eye for an eye”, not saying I agree but that is what some would use as Biblical support.

 

[jediliz]

only should be used in the most extreme of cases. And I mean so extreme, it doesn’t happen except once a millennium .

 

[dudleysharp]

If your standard for imposing the death penalty is that the person is found guilty by a jury, then you will be murdering a lot of innocent people! Juries are not infallible. Mistakes are made from time to time, and once you have taken a life you can’t give it back. How many verdicts have been overturned after people have been wrongly convicted? ?

It appears that between 25-40 actual innocents have been sentenced to death since 1973, out of the 8300 so sentnced, or 0.4%.

Of those, all were released, except one, who died of cancer while on death row.

It may be hard to find a more accurate sanction.