Death penalty

[dominikus28]

Did the church ever support the death penalty?

What about the burning of heretics at the stake, etc.? Isn’t that against the commandment ‘Thou shall not murder’?

 

[Scottgun]

The Church is opposed to the death penalty as a practical consideration generally, but does not teach that it is wrong in and of itself. Here is the teaching in the CCC:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68

Scott

 

[1ke]

The Church does not teach that capital punishment is intrinsically disordered. The defense of oneself is permissable, and the common good/social order may be preserved by means of capital punishment.

Murder is the killing of innocent persons. Those convicted of crimes are not innocent persons.

The Church teaches that in the modern world there is little need for capital punishment, and it is not currently needed to preserve order and protect society as it was in former times. It is still permissable if there are no other viable means.

The Church has not changed her teaching regarding capital punishment.

 

[mike182d]

Did the church ever support the death penalty?

What about the burning of heretics at the stake, etc.? Isn’t that against the commandment ‘Thou shall not murder’?

What command is that? The commandment I read says “Thou shall not kill.”

Of course, one cannot extrapolate from this text alone that God meant “thou shall not kill human beings.” He simply says “thou shall not kill” with no qualification on what it is we are not to kill. That could mean animals, plants, anything that possesses life.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Did the church ever support the death penalty?

What about the burning of heretics at the stake, etc.? Isn’t that against the commandment ‘Thou shall not murder’?

We tend to think of a heretic as a gentle scholar who disagreed with the Church on a tiny matter of doctrine. Galileo fitted that description. But then he wasn’t put to death.

A more typical heretic says “the religion of the King is wrong. The King is in very poor hands, misled by his evil councillors. Follow me and we will restore the Kingdom to the true faith.”.

Kings tend to be pretty hostile to that sort of stuff.

 

[Teflon93]

What command is that? The commandment I read says “Thou shall not kill.”

Of course, one cannot extrapolate from this text alone that God meant “thou shall not kill human beings.” He simply says “thou shall not kill” with no qualification on what it is we are not to kill. That could mean animals, plants, anything that possesses life.

I think in the Hebrew it’s “murder”, if I recall correctly.

 

[Genesis315]

The state may use the death penalty to preserve peace and order–heretics were put to death for severely disrupting peace and the just ordering of society. Death penalty doctrine is similar to just war doctrine. The Church basically says the death penalty is generally obsolete nowadays, just as Pius XII said war was generally obsolete as a proportionate means for achieving a just end. But, at the end of the day, the decision for war or the death rests penalty with the state, in its sphere of authority–as does the responsibility before God for using them unjustly.

 

[whatevergirl]

The Church is opposed to the death penalty as a practical consideration generally, but does not teach that it is wrong in and of itself. Here is the teaching in the CCC:

Scott

thank you for posting this. Therefore, I would conclude that with modern day prisons–the odds of someone who would be a candidate of the DP getting out to commit more crimes is slim to none. I know that pedophiles spend short stints in prison, but those laws need to be changed so that they spend life in prison, I think. Violent/sexual offenders should really never be released into the public ever. Those would be the only cases that would come before a DP judgement. If we have ample prisons…AND PRISON TERMS, the need for the DP dwindles.

I believe that protecting children, the public in general…is paramount…and within the prison walls, one can grow towards Christ perhaps, if given the opportunity.

 

[Teflon93]

thank you for posting this. Therefore, I would conclude that with modern day prisons–the odds of someone who would be a candidate of the DP getting out to commit more crimes is slim to none. I know that pedophiles spend short stints in prison, but those laws need to be changed so that they spend life in prison, I think. Violent/sexual offenders should really never be released into the public ever. Those would be the only cases that would come before a DP judgement. If we have ample prisons…AND PRISON TERMS, the need for the DP dwindles.

I believe that protecting children, the public in general…is paramount…and within the prison walls, one can grow towards Christ perhaps, if given the opportunity.

Well, murderers in general get out of prison in only a few years with a nonzero recidivism rate. “Life without parole” is still uncommon as a sentence even when a life sentence is handed down. It would be one thing if murderers spent so long away from society that they were too old to pose a threat upon release, but that isn’t often the case.

I think this is part of the reason why the Catholic Church doesn’t simply absolutely forbid the death penalty.

It is also very controversial, as a favorite tactic of the pro-abortion crowd is to equate the death penalty for murderers to the death penalty for unborn children and claim Catholics are inconsistent.

 

[whatevergirl]

Well, murderers in general get out of prison in only a few years with a nonzero recidivism rate. “Life without parole” is still uncommon as a sentence even when a life sentence is handed down. It would be one thing if murderers spent so long away from society that they were too old to pose a threat upon release, but that isn’t often the case.

I think this is part of the reason why the Catholic Church doesn’t simply absolutely forbid the death penalty.

It is also very controversial, as a favorite tactic of the pro-abortion crowd is to equate the death penalty for murderers to the death penalty for unborn children and claim Catholics are inconsistent.

murderers get out in a few years? I haven’t heard that.

 

[Teflon93]

murderers get out in a few years? I haven’t heard that.

Oh, yes—when I lived in California I think the average prison time was like 8 years. I was a witness in a murder trial where a husband killed his wife with a knife in cold blood in front of their children (who testified against him). He got 16 years, and probably would’ve gotten less if he’d had a better lawyer.

Due to prison overcrowding, many violent offenders will not serve their full term but a reduced one due to parole, time off for good behavior, etc. This is the impetus behind the “truth in sentencing” laws that creep up from time to time.

I imagine that as prison becomes viewed as a revolving door, support for the death penalty goes up.

 

[whatevergirl]

Oh, yes—when I lived in California I think the average prison time was like 8 years. I was a witness in a murder trial where a husband killed his wife with a knife in cold blood in front of their children (who testified against him). He got 16 years, and probably would’ve gotten less if he’d had a better lawyer.

Due to prison overcrowding, many violent offenders will not serve their full term but a reduced one due to parole, time off for good behavior, etc. This is the impetus behind the “truth in sentencing” laws that creep up from time to time.

I imagine that as prison becomes viewed as a revolving door, support for the death penalty goes up.

But, people would be executed at alarming rates. My feelings are that I don’t have the right (by God) to remove someone from the planet…from womb to adult.

 

[Teflon93]

But, people would be executed at alarming rates. My feelings are that I don’t have the right (by God) to remove someone from the planet…from womb to adult.

I’m not advocating for the death penalty by any means, just noting that support (and warrant) for it would go down if murderers actually spent long stretches in prison. The very worst tend to, but it’s pretty shocking how many killers get out while young enough to kill again.

 

[whatevergirl]

I’m not advocating for the death penalty by any means, just noting that support (and warrant) for it would go down if murderers actually spent long stretches in prison. The very worst tend to, but it’s pretty shocking how many killers get out while young enough to kill again.

absolutely…again–prison term reform is indeed long overdue.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Oh, yes—when I lived in California I think the average prison time was like 8 years. . . .

I was once told, though I don’t have a good source for it, that the average life sentence is paroled in 8 years as you say. Life without parole is usually commuted in 20-25 years. [This is in California.]

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Did the church ever support the death penalty?

What about the burning of heretics at the stake, etc.? Isn’t that against the commandment ‘Thou shall not murder’?

dominikus, this thread is just another variation on your constant attempt to find an infallible Church teaching which changed. Yet you do this without ever referencing or even acknowledging the difference between prudential teaching and infallible teaching. Yea though we give you mighty links whereto to navigate seeking wisdom.

:tsktsk:

 

[Teflon93]

Great question—if you’re interested, there’s a looooong and referenced post on the topic at the link below:

moltenthought.blogspot.com/2007/01/what-does-catholic-church-believe-pt.html

 

[mike14620]

I recently read “The Death of Innocents” by Sr. Helen Prejean SSJ, and am now convinced more than ever the the death penalty is both unethically applied in the United States and morally unacceptable. Prejean, the author of “Dead Man Walking” presents a compelling case against the death penalty centered around the stories of two people she watched die at the hands of the state who were, at the bare minimum, possibly innnocent. While the morality of the death penalty for absoutely guilty individuals is debatable, the execution of innocent people is not. In both cases, procedural rules prevented the convicted from presenting new evidence that their incompetent attorneys didn’t present in the original trial. Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa spoke out in attempts to save the men in the book, but ultimately, the state executed men who quite probably were innocent.

Without even evaluating the morality of the death penalty for guilty murderers, the issue of innocent people potentially being executed makes me absolutely incapable of supporting the maintenance of the death penalty in our society.

I don’t cry a lot, nor am I generally queasy, but this book made me cry after both stories, and sick to my stomach reading the third chapter, about the basically mechanical legal system that caused the deaths of these two and others who were probably innocent.

 

[vern_humphrey]

absolutely…again–prison term reform is indeed long overdue.

The first step in prison reform is to control the predators in prison. There are men there with multiple life sentences. Why should they not kill again? Why should they not intimidate Corrections Officers, threaten their families, or orchestrate revenge murders of witnesses, jury members, prosecutors and judges?

 

[whatevergirl]

The first step in prison reform is to control the predators in prison. There are men there with multiple life sentences. Why should they not kill again? Why should they not intimidate Corrections Officers, threaten their families, or orchestrate revenge murders of witnesses, jury members, prosecutors and judges?

I had this very converastion with a coworker the other day–a very staunch supporter of the DP, who said that to live is a privilege, and if someone refuses to respect others’ lives…his/her life should be taken away. We can’t only look at the situation as a glass half empty though…as Catholics, should we not be somewhat hopeful for a person’s rehabilitation…conversion to our Lord? God rejoices over one sinner coming back to the fold than 99 non sinners already doing good…

…of course not at the expense of others. But, we can’t assume that if one murders…that he/she will murder within the prison walls. Frankly, prison (the way it presently is) sets people up for failure…and makes people worse than before they came into prison, in many instances. Instead of weight rooms and cable…why not bring Christian counselors to these men and women behind bars? Why not educate them…beyond secular education…but educate them on the love of Christ? I think that we would see more rehabilitation then.

???