Death to those who reveal inner chaple LDS practices.

[majick275]

mormon fool:

I agree there weren’t many mormons in NY. My point is that many non-mormon voters were attracted to Smith’s platform. A dropped out candidate can still swing voters to another candidate by giving an endorsement (and we are only talking about 2% of the NY vote).

I think Smith’s platform scared(or angered) most non-LDS, but you are right that in a close election this could be considered a “Ralph Nader/Florida” type threat.

I included this info because Clay probably felt personally insulted. It may have motivated him to resort to dirty tricks.

Very possible

Thanks for agreeing with me here.

You’re welcome.

OK. But due to who the identifiable players in the murder are I see it as at least a factor. I left *Junius and Joseph *home so I won’t be able to jot write up the key evidences in their thesis, though.

it’s okay, I just beleive you’re overthinking it. Rather than a large conspiracy I see a lot of disgruntled, angry folks at the same time/place and a situation getting out of hand.

From what I have seen, I would not view Ford as a passive participant but one of the active schemers.

Well he certainly hqs blood on his hands.

I doubt the bank failure played much of a role in the prophet’s death. The people that lost faith in his calling over that had long since been left behind. I am guessing Elder Packer agrees with me here.

I disagree as this is just one example and some folks felt that he was abusing his position to get gain. Some were “troubled” but hadn’t left and this was a growing concern. (the BKP reference was a poke at his “disdain” for objective historical studies)

I will agree with you about Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon were estranged, but Whitney was solidly in Joseph’s corner and Partridge was already dead. Rigdon was influencial and a good orator, but I don’t really think he had much to do with establishing doctrine. The Book of Mormon establishes most of the doctrine behind the ordinances. Neither he nor Oliver ever became murderously angry at Joseph Smith. Both were way out of town. Most of the big wigs were out campaigning.

Whitney didn’t leave but when Joseph’s polygamy came into his own family things just never seemed the same. Partridge was an example; lots of folks were sorely challenged to keep the faith due to Joseph’s marriage practices. I would challenge you to review the role of Rigdon. Early on he was the only “trained minister” and was VERY influential in establishing the “details” of the LDS church. I don’t believe at all that BoM establishes most doctrine. Philosophy maybe but the Doctrine & Covenants is the canonical source of most docrine, practices, etc. and it defiunitely bears the marks of Rigdon’s influence on JS.

I agree that they didn’t become murderous but they affected many others who may have. Once again I don’t see the big plan to kill Smith so much as the “perfect storm” of circumstances creating a chaotically escalating situation that culminated in murder.

Yes, a lot of folks were out campaigning, but their doubts had an impact on others and their absence removed the chance of an orderly outcome. (thus in the absence of leaders some malcontents took action that was not well considered)

Count me in

Hmmm… We will obviously disagree on the value of changeable doctrine. I see JS receiving copius revelations on every little detail, giving him divine fiat on every idea of his. (many of which I believe came from Rigdon.) Whereas BY seemed to learn from JS mistakes and focus on governance, organizational efficiency and productivity. I still am amazed at the requied cognitive dissonance to believe JS = prophet…failed prophecies = only prophet when acting as such (also see some prophecies of God, some of Devil) BY = Prophet, establishes vast majority of “mechanics” of the Church. (auxiliaries, callings, roles & reponsibiliteis, specific procedures, etc.) …teaches “controversial” doctrines = just his opinion (JoD is used in current lesson mamuals but is not binding doctrine even though it is primarily the talks given in general confence by prophets, apostles much like current ensign)…newer prophets repudiate earlier prophets teachings (or in the case of GBH just claim ignorance about teachings " i don’t know that we teach that…") but as their own teachings are not added to the canon they are not doctrine…but follow the prophet…???

Later,
fool

PS: I don’t mean to be overcritical of your historical interpretion. It is fun to compare notes and perspectives.

Critical is good. makes it educational.

 

[mormon_fool]

BJ,

Thanks for your clarifications. I learned more about the mormon-masonry connection from your post and doing some fact checking afterwards. Well done!

majick,

I understand your thoughts more on the whudunnit better. I think you are right that I am trying too hard pin it down. I still can’t see how the Nauvoo mormons could have secretly have sold Smith out. Some of them may not have been completely enamoured with him but consorting with their enemies (who were threatening to drive them out of Nauvoo as well as lynch Smith) seems a bit of a stretch. If any of them participated in the mobs, they would have been ratted out by the mob member that later converted to mormonism and testifed against the others. I do see how the mob could have been the typical non-LDS Illnoisian, but with the masterminding coming from Whigs.

 

[majick275]

mormon fool:

B
majick,

I understand your thoughts more on the whudunnit better. I think you are right that I am trying too hard pin it down. I still can’t see how the Nauvoo mormons could have secretly have sold Smith out. Some of them may not have been completely enamoured with him but consorting with their enemies (who were threatening to drive them out of Nauvoo as well as lynch Smith) seems a bit of a stretch. If any of them participated in the mobs, they would have been ratted out by the mob member that later converted to mormonism and testifed against the others. I do see how the mob could have been the typical non-LDS Illnoisian, but with the masterminding coming from Whigs.

I don’t think the Nauvoo folks sold out anyone. i think some of their more reckless actions had unforeseen consequences that helped move the situation further towards tragedy. Once again…less conspiracy more opportunity on the part of JS enemies, naive, reckless acts by some of JS supporters didn’t help either. I don’t see much masterminding just a lot of opportunistic evil deeds.