death

[hockeyfan]

To start off, I am new here. I have browsed you boards a couple of times, and was have considered joining for a couple of weeks. I have beens studing my faith for a while now, but now I am stuck with a question that is bothering me.

Since I was 12, I have had a really good and close friend who went to a charasmatic non-denominational church. He was a person of deep faith in God, but I found he had strange views on religion. (At least that is how I percieved them) In fact, my experience growing up with him taught me a lot about the differences between Catholics and Protestants. (He would have just said Christian)

Anyways, yesterday morning he was found dead at 28. It was very sudden, and nobody knows what happened, yet. What bothers me is that he was a good guy, and had faith in Jesus. I was hopeing that I could get a strong, Catholic, theological answer to if there is hope for him. I understand that only Jesus can judge a soul, but I am concerned about the possibility that there is compatibility for a good Prodestant to be saved.

I hope to post much more in the future, and in more positive posts. Thank you.

 

[promethius]

To start off, I am new here. I have browsed you boards a couple of times, and was have considered joining for a couple of weeks. I have beens studing my faith for a while now, but now I am stuck with a question that is bothering me.

Since I was 12, I have had a really good and close friend who went to a charasmatic non-denominational church. He was a person of deep faith in God, but I found he had strange views on religion. (At least that is how I percieved them) In fact, my experience growing up with him taught me a lot about the differences between Catholics and Protestants. (He would have just said Christian)

Anyways, yesterday morning he was found dead at 28. It was very sudden, and nobody knows what happened, yet. What bothers me is that he was a good guy, and had faith in Jesus. I was hopeing that I could get a strong, Catholic, theological answer to if there is hope for him. I understand that only Jesus can judge a soul, but I am concerned about the possibility that there is compatibility for a good Prodestant to be saved.

I hope to post much more in the future, and in more positive posts. Thank you.

Welcome, Hockey Fan,

You are right, only God can judge the position of one’s soul. We hope and pray for the repentence and salvation of all people.

As to whether or not there is reason for GREAT hope (there’s always reason to hope), it IS possible that while he had seen the catholic church that he had never had the proper catechesis such that, being rational, he rejected the church and the sacraments while understanding what they are. If that is the case, then it is possible that he would have implicit baptism by desire and thus would be saved (if he was a good person and followed God’s commands to the best of his ability and knowledge).

Ultimately, we cannot tell you anything that will be an immediate cure to the question you have in your heart. The best thing I think I can say to you is this:

God is just, but He is also merciful and loving. Abandon yourself and your concern to the trust that God will do right by your friend.

 

[hockeyfan]

Welcome, Hockey Fan,

You are right, only God can judge the position of one’s soul. We hope and pray for the repentence and salvation of all people.

As to whether or not there is reason for GREAT hope (there’s always reason to hope), it IS possible that while he had seen the catholic church that he had never had the proper catechesis such that, being rational, he rejected the church and the sacraments while understanding what they are. If that is the case, then it is possible that he would have implicit baptism by desire and thus would be saved (if he was a good person and followed God’s commands to the best of his ability and knowledge).

Ultimately, we cannot tell you anything that will be an immediate cure to the question you have in your heart. The best thing I think I can say to you is this:

God is just, but He is also merciful and loving. Abandon yourself and your concern to the trust that God will do right by your friend.

That is a good post, but one thing that bothers me is that I have never actually seen a scriptural or argument from the Church saying such. It would help me a lot if I could see some sort of citation to that effect.

As far as my friend, he has a huge proponent of Sola Scriptura, Once Saved, Always Saved (Don’t know the proper title to that belief), naturally against Transubstantiation, and many of the other common Protestant ideas. That being said, he was always respectful of other beliefs.

 

[promethius]

That is a good post, but one thing that bothers me is that I have never actually seen a scriptural or argument from the Church saying such. It would help me a lot if I could see some sort of citation to that effect.

Aside from papal works recently, what about the early church fathers?

Justin Martyr:
“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. *Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).

Origen:
“[T]here was never a time when God did not want men to be just; he was always concerned about that. Indeed, he always provided beings endowed with reason with occasions for practicing virtue and doing what is right. In every generation the wisdom of God descended into those souls which he found holy and made them to be prophets and friends of God” (Against Celsus 4:7 [A.D. 248]).
Augustine:
The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics" (*Letters *43:1 [A.D. 412]).

Or if those don’t work, the Catechism:
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 847)

As far as my friend, he has a huge proponent of Sola Scriptura, Once Saved, Always Saved (Don’t know the proper title to that belief), naturally against Transubstantiation, and many of the other common Protestant ideas. That being said, he was always respectful of other beliefs.

The question is not exactly WHAT he was a proponent of, but rather WHY he was a proponent of it and not of Catholic doctrine. Like I said, it is possible that no one ever offered him any level of decent Catechesis regarding the Catholic Faith. If that is the case, then the church teaches that he might be invincibly ignorant and thus might share in Catholic Salvation through the church.

 

[Della]

Welcome to CAF and my condolences on the loss of your friend. :console:

This citation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church may be helpful to you:

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

Your friend loved Jesus and had a profound desire to serve him. He simply did not understand what he was rejecting by rejecting the teachings of the Church. No doubt he’d been filled with misinformation which made it nearly impossible for him to accept them. I was once in a denomination like his, so I understand how deeply their distrust of the Church runs. That he had as much understanding and respect for your Catholic faith as he did was remarkable. God knew what was in his heart and what he could and couldn’t accept due to his upbringing. Have no fear that God will not be loving and fair to him–he loves him far more than anyone, even his family, ever could. I will pray for the repose of his soul. You can have a Mass prayed for him and pray for him. I’m sure he’d appreciate it.

 

[Julia_Mae]

You can have a Mass prayed for him and pray for him. I’m sure he’d appreciate it.

This part is really important, and I hope everyone in the thread will pray for him, because if his friends and family are of the same belief system, no one is praying for him. They will believe he is in “soul sleep” awaiting Judgement Day when he will go straight to heaven or hell, which has been predetermined. They don’t pray for their dead.

Have a Mass said, light a candle, say a Rosary and keep him in your prayer intentions. Bet he was really surprised when he found out he wasn’t alseep!

 

[hockeyfan]

This part is really important, and I hope everyone in the thread will pray for him, because if his friends and family are of the same belief system, no one is praying for him. They will believe he is in “soul sleep” awaiting Judgement Day when he will go straight to heaven or hell, which has been predetermined. They don’t pray for their dead.

Have a Mass said, light a candle, say a Rosary and keep him in your prayer intentions. Bet he was really surprised when he found out he wasn’t alseep!

Thank you. That helped. I have said a few Divine Mercies and a couple of rosaries already.

Promethius and Della, your citations have helped to rest my soul. Most of my research on my faith have been in different areas. I appreciate your comments. Thank you, everyone.

 

[Della]

Thank you. That helped. I have said a few Divine Mercies and a couple of rosaries already.

Promethius and Della, your citations have helped to rest my soul. Most of my research on my faith have been in different areas. I appreciate your comments. Thank you, everyone.

You’re welcome. Again, I sorry you lost your friend, especially so young. I offered Evening Prayer especially for him and his family.

Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord.

And let perpetual light shine upon him.

May he rest in peace.

Amen.

 

[promethius]

Thank you. That helped. I have said a few Divine Mercies and a couple of rosaries already.

Promethius and Della, your citations have helped to rest my soul. Most of my research on my faith have been in different areas. I appreciate your comments. Thank you, everyone.

Glad we could help you somewhat. Pax et Caritas Christi (peace and love of Christ) to you and your departed friend.

This is my prayer for him:

*God our Father,
Your power brings us to birth,
Your providence guides our lives,
and by Your command we return to dust.

Lord, those who die still live in Your presence,
their lives change but do not end.
I pray in hope for hockeyfan’s friend,*
For our departed family and friends,
*and for the dead known only to You.

In company with Christ,
Who died and now lives,
may these soul rejoice in Your kingdom,
where all our tears are wiped away.
Unite us all together in one family,
to sing Your praise forever and ever.

Amen.