Deathbed Conversions

[s_panick]

Hey, I’m new here so I’m sorry if this has already been answered.

I was talking to some of my protestant friends recently and clarifying some aspects of Catholicism to them. Naturally, some of their biggest roadblocks are Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. When we were discussion Sola Fide and justification they asked me what I thought that meant for deathbed conversions. They asked, if a man is a murderer and does bad things up until he dies and never has the opportunity to do good works or participate in sacraments but sincerely professes his faith before his death is he saved?

I had never really considered it and honestly didn’t know what to say. I was honest and said I didn’t know what church doctrine would be in those circumstances and I just have to trust God. I’m just wondering if anyone knows what the Church has said about this kind of issue (if anything) and if you think I handled it ok.

Thanks!

 

[bilop]

Hey, I’m new here so I’m sorry if this has already been answered.

I was talking to some of my protestant friends recently and clarifying some aspects of Catholicism to them. Naturally, some of their biggest roadblocks are Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. When we were discussion Sola Fide and justification they asked me what I thought that meant for deathbed conversions. They asked, if a man is a murderer and does bad things up until he dies and never has the opportunity to do good works or participate in sacraments but sincerely professes his faith before his death is he saved?

I had never really considered it and honestly didn’t know what to say. I was honest and said I didn’t know what church doctrine would be in those circumstances and I just have to trust God. I’m just wondering if anyone knows what the Church has said about this kind of issue (if anything) and if you think I handled it ok.

Thanks!

If he sincerely repents, and receives Sacramental Confession and Absolution, yes he can be saved.

He’s gonna spend a lot of time in purgatory, though.

God Bless

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

If he is baptised all his sins are remitted. I always like this passage for it:

[BIBLEDRB]Mt 20:1-16[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

Hey, I’m new here so I’m sorry if this has already been answered.

I was talking to some of my protestant friends recently and clarifying some aspects of Catholicism to them. Naturally, some of their biggest roadblocks are Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. When we were discussion Sola Fide and justification they asked me what I thought that meant for deathbed conversions. They asked, if a man is a murderer and does bad things up until he dies and never has the opportunity to do good works or participate in sacraments but sincerely professes his faith before his death is he saved?

I had never really considered it and honestly didn’t know what to say. I was honest and said I didn’t know what church doctrine would be in those circumstances and I just have to trust God. I’m just wondering if anyone knows what the Church has said about this kind of issue (if anything) and if you think I handled it ok.

Thanks!

What do we need to solve this problem for?
The one who judges is Jesus Christ and he is not going to follow the rules we state here.
So, Let Him, who has got the Power and the Wisdom and the Strength judge with the Authority the Father gave Him.
And let us reduce to our humble condition…

 

[thistle]

Hey, I’m new here so I’m sorry if this has already been answered.

I was talking to some of my protestant friends recently and clarifying some aspects of Catholicism to them. Naturally, some of their biggest roadblocks are Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. When we were discussion Sola Fide and justification they asked me what I thought that meant for deathbed conversions. They asked, if a man is a murderer and does bad things up until he dies and never has the opportunity to do good works or participate in sacraments but sincerely professes his faith before his death is he saved?

I had never really considered it and honestly didn’t know what to say. I was honest and said I didn’t know what church doctrine would be in those circumstances and I just have to trust God. I’m just wondering if anyone knows what the Church has said about this kind of issue (if anything) and if you think I handled it ok.

Thanks!

If such a person is baptised on his deathbed he would be saved.
If he is already baptised and makes a sincere Confession on his deathbed he would be saved.

 

[Church_Militant]

If such a person is baptized on his deathbed he would be saved.
If he is already baptized and makes a sincere Confession on his deathbed he would be saved.

Best case scenario.

 

[jlhargus]

Hey, I’m new here so I’m sorry if this has already been answered.

I was talking to some of my protestant friends recently and clarifying some aspects of Catholicism to them. Naturally, some of their biggest roadblocks are Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. When we were discussion Sola Fide and justification they asked me what I thought that meant for deathbed conversions. They asked, if a man is a murderer and does bad things up until he dies and never has the opportunity to do good works or participate in sacraments but sincerely professes his faith before his death is he saved?

I had never really considered it and honestly didn’t know what to say. I was honest and said I didn’t know what church doctrine would be in those circumstances and I just have to trust God. I’m just wondering if anyone knows what the Church has said about this kind of issue (if anything) and if you think I handled it ok. Thanks!

I think the repentent thief on the cross answers the death bed conversion question.

[Lk23:42 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.]

 

[savedwretch]

I have to agree with the poster who said the repentent thief on the cross next to the Lord Jesus answers that question. Whether you know it or not, you just made an arguement for sola fide, but that’s because you used the bible as your authority, which is how we know the truth and so you used sola scriptura. The thief’s faith was in Christ alone so you also can see sola Christo. The fact that the thief was saved by nothing he did but by God’s grace in giving it to him to believe shows sola gratia. This like every other saved sinner was done to the glory of God alone, soli Deo gloria.

 

[thistle]

I have to agree with the poster who said the repentent thief on the cross next to the Lord Jesus answers that question. Whether you know it or not, you just made an arguement for sola fide, but that’s because you used the bible as your authority, which is how we know the truth and so you used sola scriptura. The thief’s faith was in Christ alone so you also can see sola Christo. The fact that the thief was saved by nothing he did but by God’s grace in giving it to him to believe shows sola gratia. This like every other saved sinner was done to the glory of God alone, soli Deo gloria.

You are wrong. The criminal on the cross was saved through a baptism of desire so he was in fact baptised.

There are 4 forms of baptism:

• sacramental baptism
• baptism of blood
• baptism of desire - explicit
• baptism of desire - implicit

 

[The_Scott]

(This is my opinion, so if anyone can give me a Church document that contradicts my claim, please let me know!)

Well, let’s say that this man, who made a deathbed conversion, survives his endeavor. I guarantee that he would then go to Sunday Mass, confession, and do those good works. It’s just that death came in the way.

If a man dies while on his way to Confession (such as a car wreck), then I’m sure God would forgive him; if there’s a baptism of desire, then, in my opinion, there is a confession of desire or “receiving the Eucharist of desire.”

 

[hockeyfan]

Hey, I’m new here so I’m sorry if this has already been answered.

I was talking to some of my protestant friends recently and clarifying some aspects of Catholicism to them. Naturally, some of their biggest roadblocks are Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. When we were discussion Sola Fide and justification they asked me what I thought that meant for deathbed conversions. They asked, if a man is a murderer and does bad things up until he dies and never has the opportunity to do good works or participate in sacraments but sincerely professes his faith before his death is he saved?

I had never really considered it and honestly didn’t know what to say. I was honest and said I didn’t know what church doctrine would be in those circumstances and I just have to trust God. I’m just wondering if anyone knows what the Church has said about this kind of issue (if anything) and if you think I handled it ok.

Thanks!

I don’t know about you, but a deathbed conversion sounds like a work to me.

 

[clmowry]

I have to agree with the poster who said the repentent thief on the cross next to the Lord Jesus answers that question. Whether you know it or not, you just made an arguement for sola fide, but that’s because you used the bible as your authority, which is how we know the truth and so you used sola scriptura. The thief’s faith was in Christ alone so you also can see sola Christo. The fact that the thief was saved by nothing he did but by God’s grace in giving it to him to believe shows sola gratia. This like every other saved sinner was done to the glory of God alone, soli Deo gloria.

Did I count 1…2…3…4…sola’s their?

How many sola’s do we need before we can decide we are not saved by “sola” anything?

Chuck

 

[kkollwitz]

“Well, let’s say that this man, who made a deathbed conversion, survives his endeavor. I guarantee that he would then go to Sunday Mass, confession, and do those good works. It’s just that death came in the way.”

For the rest of his life his faith would be shown by his works. For a human being, body & soul are not separate things, each going its own way.

 

[jlhargus]

I have to agree with the poster who said the repentent thief on the cross next to the Lord Jesus answers that question. Whether you know it or not, you just made an arguement for sola fide, but that’s because you used the bible as your authority, which is how we know the truth and so you used sola scriptura. The thief’s faith was in Christ alone so you also can see sola Christo. The fact that the thief was saved by nothing he did but by God’s grace in giving it to him to believe shows sola gratia. This like every other saved sinner was done to the glory of God alone, soli Deo gloria.

The thief had no opportunity to live out that GRACE gift of faith did he? With your theory infants cannot be saved at all. They can’t have FAITH ALONE can they? All is GRACE and of course Christ alone is the source.

No I haven’t made an argument for sola fide. Sola fide is nothing more than a tradition of men. Yes I did use the bible as my authority but not my ONLY authority. Even sola scriptura tells you the Church is the PILLAR and GROUND of TRUTH, 1Tm3:15. Yet you ignore your ONLY authority. You don’t even follow sola scriptura but traditions of men that nullify the Word of God. I would be happy to debate with you your sola traditions of men which are not found in scripture. If you aren’t afraid start another line and let me know.

 

[Pug]

Hey, I’m new here so I’m sorry if this has already been answered.

I was talking to some of my protestant friends recently and clarifying some aspects of Catholicism to them. Naturally, some of their biggest roadblocks are Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. When we were discussion Sola Fide and justification they asked me what I thought that meant for deathbed conversions. They asked, if a man is a murderer and does bad things up until he dies and never has the opportunity to do good works or participate in sacraments but sincerely professes his faith before his death is he saved?

I had never really considered it and honestly didn’t know what to say. I was honest and said I didn’t know what church doctrine would be in those circumstances and I just have to trust God. I’m just wondering if anyone knows what the Church has said about this kind of issue (if anything) and if you think I handled it ok.

Thanks!

You used the word “sincerely” to describe how he professes his faith. It depends on what you mean to convey by that. Merely saying “Jesus is Lord” out loud without his heart being correctly tuned and playing the melody God gave it won’t work. As an observer standing by the dying man’s side, you would not be able to tell by looking at him what was in his heart (God sees his heart, of course). But it is possible for him to be given the grace at that time and for him to be truly converted.

It is not like a person can build up so many bad things in their life that their “negative column” is so huge that they don’t have enough time left in life to dig themselves out of the “hole” by putting some equally weighted stuff in the positive column. There is no kind of calculus or computation like that. There are no “columns” and “balancing”. I’ve met some non-Catholics who for whatever reason think there is such a computation that happens to people, but there isn’t. Catholics don’t use plus and minus columns to determine salvation (and of course neither does God).

The only reason I mention the plus and minus column is because it is possible that your questioners have such a construct in their minds that is behind why they ask the question. It depends on their affiliations and personal beliefs, either about Catholics or from their own religion.

 

[ChrissyB364]

Did I count 1…2…3…4…sola’s their?

How many sola’s do we need before we can decide we are not saved by “sola” anything?

Chuck

That was FABULOUS!

 

[snarflemike]

There are a few counter-questions one can ask in response to this question.

1. If a person becomes a Christian at, say, age 10, an lives 70 more years and never does any good works but claims to have faith, will that person be saved?
2. If a baby dies a day after being born, without ever having had faith, will that baby be saved?

Regarding #1, the point is that what might work for a deathbed conversion is not the norm, and tells the Christian nothing about how to live his life.

Regarding #2, some Protestants will say the baby goes to hell, but a great many will say he goes to heaven. So if works are not an absolute requirement for salvation, then perhaps neither is faith. Again, the situation tells the Christian nothing about how to live his life.