Debate between Husband and Wife

[sergius89]

(This question references cannon 2366 to 2370 in the CCC)

My wife and I are having a debate. Based upon the cannons listed above, it is my understanding that the “marriage act” is meant to serve two purposes, the creation of life and as an expression of love between the husband and wife. By logical extension this tells me that if a married couple uses contraception then the act is sinful since they are blocking the creation of life. My wife’s standpoint is that since a large number of Catholics use contraception then the act is not sinful. My standpoint is that since this is the teaching of the church then it must be followed to be a good Catholic. My wife’s standpoint is that since it is not followed by a large number of Catholics then the idea that it is sinful is irrelevant since it is not practiced, at least by the Catholics we know.

Opinions?

 

[ZoeyBdo]

You are correct, your wife is incorrect.

God said thou shalt not kill, yet so many on this planet do. Is it then not sinful? No.

Same premise.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I kind of hate to add to this, since The ‘debate’ has been settled so nicely in post #2…
So, I won’t!! There is nothing more to say. Chalk one up for the husbands.

 

[Sillara]

Doubtless your wife doesn’t know us in real life, but my husband and I are Catholics. We are real people. And we are not contracepting. Just in case that helps?

 

[april32010]

Doubtless your wife doesn’t know us in real life, but my husband and I are Catholics. We are real people. And we are not contracepting. Just in case that helps?

this isn’t real life!?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

(This question references cannon 2366 to 2370 in the CCC)

My wife and I are having a debate. Based upon the cannons listed above, it is my understanding that the “marriage act” is meant to serve two purposes, the creation of life and as an expression of love between the husband and wife. By logical extension this tells me that if a married couple uses contraception then the act is sinful since they are blocking the creation of life. My wife’s standpoint is that since a large number of Catholics use contraception then the act is not sinful. My standpoint is that since this is the teaching of the church then it must be followed to be a good Catholic. My wife’s standpoint is that since it is not followed by a large number of Catholics then the idea that it is sinful is irrelevant since it is not practiced, at least by the Catholics we know.

Opinions?

There are some confusions in your wife’s thinking.
1st, the Catholic church is not a democracy.
2nd, people in the RCC are sinners like in any other religion. so, the sins of others (I am not saying that they are sinning, I say, sins of others) are not justification for my sins.

 

[bmullins]

"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.”
― Leo Tolstoy

There have been many people wearing the label of Catholic who have been pedophiles, murders, rapists, and liars. That doesn’t make any of those things right, or any less heinous. It means that they aren’t really Catholic. Orthodoxy vs orthopraxy.

 

[april32010]

Doubtless your wife doesn’t know us in real life, but my husband and I are Catholics. We are real people. And we are not contracepting. Just in case that helps?

this isn’t real life!?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.”
― Leo Tolstoy

There have been many people wearing the label of Catholic who have been pedophiles, murders, rapists, and liars. That doesn’t make any of those things right, or any less heinous. It means that they aren’t really Catholic. Orthodoxy vs orthopraxy.

Well, if they have been baptized, then they are “really Catholic.” They are bad Catholics, sinful Catholics, maybe even heretical Catholics, but they ARE Catholics.

 

[GEddie]

Our LORD Himself said that “few” would find the way to life.

To me, that means that we cannot use the actions of the majority ( if it is in fact a majority), as a guide to truth or virtue. Only Church teaching can do that.

ICXC NIKA

 

[bmullins]

Well, if they have been baptized, then they are “really Catholic.” They are bad Catholics, sinful Catholics, maybe even heretical Catholics, but they ARE Catholics.

Very good point, I should have said they aren’t following their faith instead of aren’t Catholics. Thank you for your admonishment, my apologies.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Very good point, I should have said they aren’t following their faith instead of aren’t Catholics. Thank you for your admonishment, my apologies.

Hey, I was lapsed for 20+ years and never would I have considered myself to be a Catholic during that period, but once I returned, I learned to my great horror that had I died during that lapse, I most definitely would have gone straight to hell for my sins, since I was still a Catholic.

Our sacraments leave us changed forever, not just for as long as we acknowledge them, but forever.

 

[Crescentinus]

Using argumentum ad populum doesn’t make evil as good.

 

[PatriceA]

I kind of hate to add to this, since The ‘debate’ has been settled so nicely in post #2…
So, I won’t!! There is nothing more to say. Chalk one up for the husbands.

No, chalk one up for Catholics, husbands or wives, that know the true teachings of their faith. This isn’t a competition between husbands and wives, there are just as many wives that know the teachings as there are husbands that are all for contraception. Careful not to make one spouse better than the other.

 

[1ke]

(This question references cannon 2366 to 2370 in the CCC)

My wife and I are having a debate. Based upon the cannons listed above,

Just a technical point, the Catechism does not contain canons, as in canon law. They are referred to as paragraphs.

it is my understanding that the “marriage act” is meant to serve two purposes, the creation of life and as an expression of love between the husband and wife. By logical extension this tells me that if a married couple uses contraception then the act is sinful since they are blocking the creation of life.

Correct. Each act of intercourse must be unaltered, objectively both unitive and procreative.

My wife’s standpoint is that since a large number of Catholics use contraception then the act is not sinful.

This is a logical fallacy. And not one that it takes much thought to find. By this logic, abortion is moral. After all, there are over 40 million a year, and some (misguided) Catholics participate in them.

Morality is not determined by majority. It is determind objectively, by God.

My standpoint is that since this is the teaching of the church then it must be followed to be a good Catholic.

Yes, this is correct. The teachings of the Church require assent.

My wife’s standpoint is that since it is not followed by a large number of Catholics then the idea that it is sinful is irrelevant since it is not practiced, at least by the Catholics we know.

Your wife is being quite silly.

 

[Semper_Zelare]

Using argumentum ad populum doesn’t make evil as good.

This.

What your wife is doing is pointing to bad behavior to justify bad behavior.

What does your wife feel about pornography? What about using the Lord’s name in vein? What about lying?

It doesn’t matter how many people sin, there is never a threshold of people sinning that stops the behavior from being evil. St. Athanaisus: “If I awoke tomorrow to discover that the whole world was Arian, then it would be Athanasius against the world”.

 

[sergius89]

Thanks for all the good (name removed by moderator)ut. Let me change the facts and circumstances.

My wife has a heart condition that makes carrying a child extremely dangerous to the point all the doctors consulted advised us not to get pregnant. My wife is on birth control to regulate her cycle and maintain her blood pressure. We have not been sexually active. For further information we do have an adopted son. Given these facts and circumstances, should we as a married couple not engage in sexual activity, even though we love each other deeply and it is an act of love between two people.

Once again, thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[1ke]

Thanks for all the good (name removed by moderator)ut. Let me change the facts and circumstances.

The immorality of contraception is not based on circumstances. They are not relevant, actually.

My wife has a heart condition that makes carrying a child extremely dangerous to the point all the doctors consulted advised us not to get pregnant.

You should follow your doctor’s advice to avoid pregnancy. That does not mean you can contracept.

My wife is on birth control to regulate her cycle and maintain her blood pressure.

I’m sorry. The pill neither “regulates” one’s cycle nor blood pressure. Quite the opposite. The Pill is contraindicated for those with high blood pressure or pretty much anything cardiovascular in nature. Holy cow that is danerous!!!

Given these facts and circumstances, should we as a married couple not engage in sexual activity, even though we love each other deeply and it is an act of love between two people.

I am sure that you love each other, and your son, very much.

I suggest that you get a serious second opinion on this birth control pill thing, because it is NOT for blood pressure. I don’t know if your wife was grasping at straws or what. I suggest you get evaluated by doctors affiliated with the Pope Paul VI Institute, www.popepaulvi.com. Something sounds really off.

While total abstinence is one choice, you can also learn and use one of the methods of natural family planning. You can use these conservatively and have some times of intimacy during the infertile time of the cycle. There are several women who post on here who also have life threatening reasons to avoid pregnancy and who use NFP to do so, and have for over a decade.

If your wife is legitimately taking hormones (even in the form of birth control pills) for serious NON conraceptive medical reasons, and the need to take them is proportionate to their potential side effects, then that would fall under the principle of double effect. I suggest you talk to your priest about this. “Regulating” the cycle is not a proportionate reason in most cases, the pill doesn’t actually regulate anything.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Thanks for all the good (name removed by moderator)ut. Let me change the facts and circumstances.

My wife has a heart condition that makes carrying a child extremely dangerous to the point all the doctors consulted advised us not to get pregnant. My wife is on birth control to regulate her cycle and maintain her blood pressure. We have not been sexually active. For further information we do have an adopted son. Given these facts and circumstances, should we as a married couple not engage in sexual activity, even though we love each other deeply and it is an act of love between two people.

Once again, thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut.

Birth control pills do not maintain blood pressure. Are you making up hypotheticals, or what?

 

[sergius89]

The way my wife’s doctor explained it to me, the use of birth control is to regulate the cycle and to prevent my wife from having longer than normal periods as the blood loss can be problematic. My wife pressure is usually 90/65. The doctor does not want it any lower.

Please lets focus on the religious issues.