Debate help: Contraception mentality leads to divorce, homosexuality, murder

[ahs]

LemonAndLime, you are partially right. I did not come here to debate the issue, but to gather statistics and hear others’ reasoning and to prepare a response to someone else I was debating with. But I AM open to correction and debate. Right now I see nothing that tells me anything other than the contraception mentality has led us toward acceptance of abortion, homosexual lifestyles, and increased divorce rate.

Women getting married in Kenya, where it’s illegal to be openly homosexual and contraception is taboo, and the women don’t even sleep in the same hut and admit to NOT having sexual activity except with MEN doesn’t take away from the correlation that I’m seeing.

If you look at the links that others’, and myself, have posted, there is a strong correlation. The timing of the popular acceptance of contraceptives was followed by a strong and steady increase in divorce rates, which was followed by jaw-dropping numbers of abortions, and decreasing marriage rates, and decreasing birth rates.

Do all these things give a definitive proof? No. But the correlation is too obvious to simply ignore. It deserves to be looked at deeper.

And think of it from the position of reason, as Nate13 has discussed in depth. This happens to be the angle at which I’m discussing it with the other person. He is not a Christian, so what the Bible or the Church say is not relevant to him. So, I take him down the road of common reason:

"Please do me a favor and defend contraception to me while simultaneously condemning homosexual sex."

 

[Nate13]

Women went to work: ilo.org/public/english/standards/relm/ilc/ilc87/rep-v-1.htm#Figure 1

Before WWII, most women in the West would not work, and stay at home. They had very little incentive to divorce, because an unmarried woman with children had problem staying alive. Once women achieved economic independence, that no longer applied.

That would only explain why people are more quick to choose divorce, not why they choose to divorce in the first place. One cited reason for divorce is adultery. Adultery is easier to commit because of contraception and it also speaks to that person’s understanding of sex and its purpose. Ignorance of sex and its designed purposes is the underlying cause of acceptance of contraception, divorce, etc…

First documented abortion was 1500BC: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion

I don’t care which one is accepted first. As soon as you accept one, you leave yourself open to accepting them all because you have left human reason in the dust behind you.

 

[ahs]

That would only explain why people are more quick to choose divorce, not why they choose to divorce in the first place. One cited reason for divorce is adultery. Adultery is easier to commit because of contraception and it also speaks to that person’s understanding of sex and its purpose. Ignorance of sex and its designed purposes is the underlying cause of acceptance of contraception, divorce, etc…

Good point.

I don’t care which one is accepted first. As soon as you accept one, you leave yourself open to accepting them all because you have left human reason in the dust behind you.

Yeah, I think which came first, abortion or contraception, or how long ago, etc…doesn’t make or break a point. Even all the stats and graphs and charts, even those that I’m referring to myself, aren’t going to be “proof”. The just show a correlation that needs to be investigated. The real proof is in the reasoning.

To add to my invitation in my previous post, one might wish to try to defend contraception while simultaneously condemning abortion or divorce as well? I personally think that it cannot be done unless all reason is outright rejected.

 

[Nate13]

I personally think that it cannot be done unless all reason is outright rejected.

It becomes a he said she said argument. “The Bible says this”…“no I read it like this”…“The Church says this”…“the Church can be wrong and I don’t have to believe them”…“but this is what the Holy Spirit is telling me”…and so on.

 

[littlebum2002]

Homosexual men have been molested as children at much higher rates than heterosexual men (35% versus 4% in one study).

Homosexuals are also bullied more in schools.

I don’t see how either of these statistics is relevant to the current topic. Yes, children who do not fit in with traditional gender roles are more likely to be abused both physically and emotionally. But how does this mean that society is increasing the amount of homosexuals?

 

[LemonAndLime]

Homosexuals are also bullied more in schools.

I don’t see how either of these statistics is relevant to the current topic. Yes, children who do not fit in with traditional gender roles are more likely to be abused both physically and emotionally. But how does this mean that society is increasing the amount of homosexuals?

Also, maybe homosexual men are more likely to admit to being sexually abused? Perhaps feel under less pressure to be “macho” about it? In the same way that women are more likely to come forward.

Homosexuality has only “risen” itself because more people feel able to (legally and emotionally) declare it on a census. That’s all it is.

 

[LemonAndLime]

That would only explain why people are more quick to choose divorce, not why they choose to divorce in the first place. One cited reason for divorce is adultery. Adultery is easier to commit because of contraception and it also speaks to that person’s understanding of sex and its purpose. Ignorance of sex and its designed purposes is the underlying cause of acceptance of contraception, divorce, etc…

Oh, please. Before WW2 getting a divorce was almost impossible. There was no such thing as marital rape, no jobs for women and the social stigma would have been unbearable. They’re just not “slow” to do it. Nowadays it is NOT more socially acceptable to be a beaten wife/unhappy than a single parent, that’s why.

I don’t care which one is accepted first. As soon as you accept one, you leave yourself open to accepting them all because you have left human reason in the dust behind you.

Apart from not all people who use contraception agree with abortion.

 

[LovePatience]

Also, maybe homosexual men are more likely to admit to being sexually abused? Perhaps feel under less pressure to be “macho” about it? In the same way that women are more likely to come forward.

Homosexuality has only “risen” itself because more people feel able to (legally and emotionally) declare it on a census. That’s all it is.

No, its the same for homosexual women as well. They are also more likely to have been sexually abused.
conservapedia.com/Sexual_abuse_being_a_contributing_factor_for_homosexuality

 

[LemonAndLime]

No, its the same for homosexual women as well. They are also more likely to have been sexually abused.
conservapedia.com/Sexual_abuse_being_a_contributing_factor_for_homosexuality

*correction, more likely to admit to being sexually abused. Unless the people doing these surveys could mind-read, Q&A style always rely on the participants being truthful.

Perhaps going alongside accepting you’re not part of ‘normal’ sexuality comes with being able to admit to bad sexual things that happened to you in the past. Coming to terms with your own sexuality must naturally involve coming to terms with things that happened to you as a child. This of course cannot be proven (perhaps I could find an article for you but I doubt you’ll accept it), but you cannot disprove what I say either.

Also, interesting source. A very biased website.

 

[Nate13]

Oh, please. Before WW2 getting a divorce was almost impossible. There was no such thing as marital rape, no jobs for women and the social stigma would have been unbearable. They’re just not “slow” to do it. Nowadays it is NOT more socially acceptable to be a beaten wife/unhappy than a single parent, that’s why.

Physical abuse is not the main cause of divorce, and is usually just a sign of the real problems that are causing divorce. Physical abuse does not lead to money problems. Money problems lead to physical abuse. Ignorance of sex and its designed purposes is the underlying cause of marital rape. No sane man would do that to his wife and think it was fine if he knew it. The same would apply to adultery. No sane man or woman would commit adultery and think it was good if they were not ignorant.

Physical, emotional, and verbal abuse are all just consequences of underlying factors. It could be as simple as a failure of the man to have self-mastery i.e chastity. A failure to strive for chastity is just another way of saying being ignorant of sex and its designed purposes. Addiction is another cause of divorce, which is also tied to the virtue of temperance and chastity.

Apart from not all people who use contraception agree with abortion.

As soon as you accept one, you leave yourself open to accepting them all because you have left human reason in the dust behind you.

Note the underlined “you leave yourself open” not “you will”. When you deny the natural moral law i.e human reason (scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a1.htm) you can no longer use that principle to support any of your other positions.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Physical abuse is not the main cause of divorce, and is usually just a sign of the real problems that are causing divorce. Physical abuse does not lead to money problems. Money problems lead to physical abuse. Ignorance of sex and its designed purposes is the underlying cause of marital rape. No sane man would do that to his wife and think it was fine if he knew it. The same would apply to adultery. No sane man or woman would commit adultery and think it was good if they were not ignorant.

Wait, so men only rape because they’re having money troubles or because they’re using contraception? Are you for real?

Physical, emotional, and verbal abuse are all just consequences of underlying factors.

Like having a horrible human being of a husband. You sound like you’re just rationalising it. “Oh but the rapist was hurting too!”

It could be as simple as a failure of the man to have self-mastery i.e chastity. A failure to strive for chastity is just another way of saying being ignorant of sex and its designed purposes. Addiction is another cause of divorce, which is also tied to the virtue of temperance and chastity.

So basically, in countries where contraception and abortion are illegal, there should be no rape or adultary?

Oh, hang on, they exist there too! So your theory is out of the water.

 

[LovePatience]

*correction, more likely to admit to being sexually abused. Unless the people doing these surveys could mind-read, Q&A style always rely on the participants being truthful.

Perhaps going alongside accepting you’re not part of ‘normal’ sexuality comes with being able to admit to bad sexual things that happened to you in the past. Coming to terms with your own sexuality must naturally involve coming to terms with things that happened to you as a child. This of course cannot be proven (perhaps I could find an article for you but I doubt you’ll accept it), but you cannot disprove what I say either.

Also, interesting source. A very biased website.

Are you saying that heterosexual men and women who have been abused as children are unlikely to admit to it? They tend to lie about being sexually abused and say that they have not been abused when they really have?

 

[Nate13]

Wait, so men only rape because they’re having money troubles or because they’re using contraception? Are you for real?

How the heck did you get that from my statement? My point was that sane men who are not ignorant of sex and its purposes would never commit marital rape or any kind of rape willfully. Obvious straw man here.

Like having a horrible human being of a husband. You sound like you’re just rationalising it. “Oh but the rapist was hurting too!”

Lets say we are talking about someone who hits his wife because they can’t control their anger. Sexual urges are much harder to control than anger. It only follows that someone who is able to achieve self-mastery over their sexual urges i.e practice chastity would be much less likely to struggles to with mastering their anger.

Since I’m claiming that such men are denying the very essence of their bodies and are ignorant of the purposes of sex and the design of God, saying I’m “rationalizing” their behavior is absurd. My whole point is that such people are completely irrational and that irrationality breeds more irrationality. Being irrational and accepting any form of sexual immorality makes someone more susceptible to accepting other forms of sexual immorality.

So basically, in countries where contraception and abortion are illegal, there should be no rape or adultary?

Oh, hang on, they exist there too! So your theory is out of the water.

I refuse to respond in defense of arguments I never made. That would be almost as counterproductive as accusing people of making arguments they never made…

 

[ahs]

… But how does this mean that society is increasing the amount of homosexuals?

Homosexuality has only “risen” itself because more people feel able to (legally and emotionally) declare it on a census. That’s all it is.

You are both talking about a side issue…and one that no one is debating. As I posted to littlebum earlier, you 2 are talking about same sex attraction. I am talking about homosexual sex and society’s acceptance of it.

I invite you to get back on topic and I open myself to your corrections of my beliefs. You can show me my error by doing the following: Defend contraception while simultaneously condemning homosexual intercourse, divorce, or abortion…or each one if you wish to prove me wrong on all points of my belief.

-ahs

 

[LemonAndLime]

LemonAndLime, you are partially right. I did not come here to debate the issue, but to gather statistics and hear others’ reasoning and to prepare a response to someone else I was debating with. But I AM open to correction and debate. Right now I see nothing that tells me anything other than the contraception mentality has led us toward acceptance of abortion, homosexual lifestyles, and increased divorce rate.

Women getting married in Kenya, where it’s illegal to be openly homosexual and contraception is taboo, and the women don’t even sleep in the same hut and admit to NOT having sexual activity except with MEN doesn’t take away from the correlation that I’m seeing.

If you look at the links that others’, and myself, have posted, there is a strong correlation. The timing of the popular acceptance of contraceptives was followed by a strong and steady increase in divorce rates, which was followed by jaw-dropping numbers of abortions, and decreasing marriage rates, and decreasing birth rates.

Do all these things give a definitive proof? No. But the correlation is too obvious to simply ignore. It deserves to be looked at deeper.

And think of it from the position of reason, as Nate13 has discussed in depth. This happens to be the angle at which I’m discussing it with the other person. He is not a Christian, so what the Bible or the Church say is not relevant to him. So, I take him down the road of common reason:

"Please do me a favor and defend contraception to me while simultaneously condemning homosexual sex."

Correlation does not equal causation.

The general health of the UK’s population has increased dramatically since the introduction of abortion and contraception! The general health of the UK’s population dramatically rose between 1960-1970. So, in your own words “the correlation is too obvious to simply ignore”, right? They must be linked! Something makes me think you will definately disagreee that contraception+abortion = greater life expectancy, but maybe you’ll learn something from my example.

I am curious why you are asking me to dissent from Church teaching. Also, don’t really understand the point of it.

 

[Jaaanosik]

The argument is really quite simple, but unfortunately you missed it. We are reasonable creatures. We want to be reasonable. The argument is that a person cannot be reasonable and hold the position that contraception is ok, but homosexual acts are not. Once a person accepts that contraception is ok, they are bound to accept that homosexual acts are ok. The only thing that might stop them from doing so is the Bible. There would be no practical reason to stand on from which to say contraception is wrong though.

The whole “the Bible says so” or “the Church says so” reason for saying something is wrong does not really hold up well for many people though, which is why many people are becoming accepting of homosexuality. There are a variety of ways to ignore what the Bible says by either explaining it away through a mumbled translation or claiming it was the just the bias of the day. I don’t have to explain how people come to ignore the Church’s authority haha.

This is how acceptance of contraception leads to acceptance of homosexuality. When you accept contraception you throw human reason down in the dust and the only thing stopping you from not accepting homosexuality, divorce, abortion, sex before marriage, is a “because the Bible/Church said so” argument.

OK, so we are presented with a fact that contraception mentality leads to homosexuality because some posters said so.
Nice.

 

[ahs]

Correlation does not equal causation.

I agree. I believe the correlation, in this particular case, exists because of the causation.

The general health of the UK’s population has increased dramatically since the introduction of abortion and contraception! The general health of the UK’s population dramatically rose between 1960-1970. So, in your own words “the correlation is too obvious to simply ignore”, right? They must be linked! Something makes me think you will definately disagreee that contraception+abortion = greater life expectancy, but maybe you’ll learn something from my example.

The correlation DOES deserve attention. So then I start looking into what things have contributed to heath that also may have contributed to abortion or contraception. Medical advances, a better understanding of nutrition, antibiotics and there uses/limits…many things can lead to advances in health…many things that have nothing to do with whether or not that population is getting divorces, whether birth rates are up or down, or whether homosexuality is being accepted or condemned. I begin to see that an increasing overall health says absolutely nothing about a country’s marriage rates or whether they accept as “normal” things that were previously condemned. A population can be healthier, medically, and still be on the downfall as far as birth rates, marriage/divorce, abortion, contraception, etc… So, with some sound reasoning, I can quickly see that it’s not a strong correlation.

On the flip side, I can look at that same healthy population and see where, since the start of popularly acceptable contraceptive use, birth rates are down, divorces are on the rise, homosexual intercourse is looked at as a right, and babies are being aborted, and in the UK particularly, Church attendance is down. This is the case in the US as well. As I seek some common theme in these things, I can see a direct similarity to the causes of at least some of these: a contraceptive mentality where the marital union has all but lost its meaning and many people are having sex for any reason other than procreation.

I am curious why you are asking me to dissent from Church teaching. Also, don’t really understand the point of it.

I’m not asking that you do any such thing. This is strictly hypothetical. And the point is to prove me wrong. If you can successfully argue why contraception would be okay and homosexual intercourse, abortion, or divorce would not be, then I would see where I would be unable to make the conclusion I did…that the contraceptive mentality has led to the popular acceptance of these other things.

Put in the perspective of someone who actually believes this to be true. Some protestants, even some Catholics, would argue that contraception is okay, yet homosexual sex is not. How could such a person reasonably make this argument? What would their basis for the acceptance of contraception be?

 

[Jaaanosik]

I agree. I believe the correlation, in this particular case, exists because of the causation.

The correlation DOES deserve attention. So then I start looking into what things have contributed to heath that also may have contributed to abortion or contraception. Medical advances, a better understanding of nutrition, antibiotics and there uses/limits…many things can lead to advances in health…many things that have nothing to do with whether or not that population is getting divorces, whether birth rates are up or down, or whether homosexuality is being accepted or condemned. I begin to see that an increasing overall health says absolutely nothing about a country’s marriage rates or whether they accept as “normal” things that were previously condemned. A population can be healthier, medically, and still be on the downfall as far as birth rates, marriage/divorce, abortion, contraception, etc… So, with some sound reasoning, I can quickly see that it’s not a strong correlation.

On the flip side, I can look at that same healthy population and see where, since the start of popularly acceptable contraceptive use, birth rates are down, divorces are on the rise, homosexual intercourse is looked at as a right, and babies are being aborted, and in the UK particularly, Church attendance is down. This is the case in the US as well. As I seek some common theme in these things, I can see a direct similarity to the causes of at least some of these: a contraceptive mentality where the marital union has all but lost its meaning and many people are having sex for any reason other than procreation.

I’m not asking that you do any such thing. This is strictly hypothetical. And the point is to prove me wrong. If you can successfully argue why contraception would be okay and homosexual intercourse, abortion, or divorce would not be, then I would see where I would be unable to make the conclusion I did…that the contraceptive mentality has led to the popular acceptance of these other things.

Put in the perspective of someone who actually believes this to be true. Some protestants, even some Catholics, would argue that contraception is okay, yet homosexual sex is not. How could such a person reasonably make this argument? What would their basis for the acceptance of contraception be?

Does NFP have contraceptive mentality?

 

[LemonAndLime]

I agree. I believe the correlation, in this particular case, exists because of the causation.

Yet I haven’t seen any proof, so all it is is you searching for proof of an opinion you already hold. You should look for proof without opinions otherwise you’ll only see or believe what you want to. Hence why we’re going in circles.

The correlation DOES deserve attention. So then I start looking into what things have contributed to heath that also may have contributed to abortion or contraception. Medical advances, a better understanding of nutrition, antibiotics and there uses/limits…many things can lead to advances in health…many things that have nothing to do with whether or not that population is getting divorces, whether birth rates are up or down, or whether homosexuality is being accepted or condemned. I begin to see that an increasing overall health says absolutely nothing about a country’s marriage rates or whether they accept as “normal” things that were previously condemned. A population can be healthier, medically, and still be on the downfall as far as birth rates, marriage/divorce, abortion, contraception, etc… So, with some sound reasoning, I can quickly see that it’s not a strong correlation.

Hurray! And from this exercise we have learnt that correlation does not equal causation, and that other factors are always at work when we’re looking at social issues. Therefore, you can never attribute one social phenomenon onto one single cause. Psychologists would describe this as never being able to prove anything, as both them and sociologists agree that nothing is ever proven in their fields of work. That’s a hint.

On the flip side, I can look at that same healthy population and see where, since the start of popularly acceptable contraceptive use, birth rates are down, divorces are on the rise, homosexual intercourse is looked at as a right, and babies are being aborted, and in the UK particularly, Church attendance is down. This is the case in the US as well. As I seek some common theme in these things, I can see a direct similarity to the causes of at least some of these: a contraceptive mentality where the marital union has all but lost its meaning and many people are having sex for any reason other than procreation.

Not sure what that has to do with increasing health but I see you wanted to rant.

I’m not asking that you do any such thing. This is strictly hypothetical. And the point is to prove me wrong. If you can successfully argue why contraception would be okay and homosexual intercourse, abortion, or divorce would not be, then I would see where I would be unable to make the conclusion I did…that the contraceptive mentality has led to the popular acceptance of these other things.

Okay. Contraception is perfectly okay because we are facing a population crisis in the world. Homosexuality is wrong because it is against the natural law, as its sex without the gift of reproduction. Abortion is wrong because it is the taking away a life already begun. Divorce is not okay because what God has put together, let no one tear asunder.

Put in the perspective of someone who actually believes this to be true. Some protestants, even some Catholics, would argue that contraception is okay, yet homosexual sex is not. How could such a person reasonably make this argument? What would their basis for the acceptance of contraception be?

I don’t know why you consider this so difficult.

 

[Nate13]

I don’t know why you consider this so difficult.

Then do it.