Debate: Novus Ordo vs. TLM; Traditional vs. Traditionalist

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI has stated that the Mass according to the 1962 Missal was not done away with by VII. He has now said that we are free to celebrate Mass according to 1962 Missal and should have always been allowed to do so. Therefore since it was never done away with by the VII asking for it attending it longing for it has never been disobedient to the Holy Spirit or the Magisterium.

Is the Novus Ordo evil? NO. I could not be the Mass of Christ Holy Catholic Church if it was.

Did it come into being through the error of men promoting their own desires? I can not answer that.

I find nothing in the documents of VII that call for a completely new order of the Mass. I have attended Novus Ordo Mass my entire life because I was led to believe until recently I had no other option. Now I go to both I can find the Lord in both. If I had to pick one it would be the Tridentine Mass.

From all that I have seen VII main goal was to better create better teaching of the faith. To bring more understand to the laity of what and why of the ritual of the Mass. I am so saddened that now at 42 years of age I am just now learning of all the rich traditions of my Catholic Faith. We have watered done the Faith over the last 40+ years and wonder why people find it so easy to leave the church. Somehow Bishops and Priest came to the conclusion that we needed to make things easier. I totally disagree. You keep more faith by more adherence not less. By teaching the the unchanging, not by giving lose guidelines.

There have been Times in my life that I have been so disgruntled by the change in the Church since VII that I have thought about going to the Orthodox. I could never do it as I could not make myself go into schism with Rome. I can voice my displeasure on what I see as abuse of the Liturgy since VII, about VII being improperly enacted IMHO. But In public matters of Faith I could part for the Church by separating myself from the Holy See and joining a schismatic group. Decent yes depart no.

We hare commanded By Christ and The Apostles to obey but not blindly.

 

[FAB]

I find nothing in the documents of VII that call for a completely new order of the Mass. I have attended Novus Ordo Mass my entire life because I was led to believe until recently I had no other option. Now I go to both I can find the Lord in both. If I had to pick one it would be the Tridentine Mass.

The documents did call for a change in the mass. The Novus Ordo according to the biships is now the ordinary form of the mass, meaning it is the mass to be used in most cases. Allowing the TLM does not replace it and it is considered extraordinary form of the mass.

From all that I have seen VII main goal was to better create better teaching of the faith. To bring more understand to the laity of what and why of the ritual of the Mass.

This was only a small part of the overall scope of Vatican II. It is the most visable, so perhaps the reason it gets the most attention.

I am so saddened that now at 42 years of age I am just now learning of all the rich traditions of my Catholic Faith. We have watered done the Faith over the last 40+ years and wonder why people find it so easy to leave the church. Somehow Bishops and Priest came to the conclusion that we needed to make things easier. I totally disagree. You keep more faith by more adherence not less. By teaching the the unchanging, not by giving lose guidelines

.

The rich traditions of the church contuinue to exist. Nothing of the truth taught by the church was every watered down as you say. The church is continually giving us guidlines on how to live our lives. People leave the church for a varity of reasons, but I often because they putting their own beliefs or wishes above the teachings of the church. Example: The church says that sex is only to be in the context of marriage. A couple decides to live together, another church has a differnent view, the couple leaves the church because they don’t like the teaching. The church has not watered down anything. The church didn’t make anything easier.
Some would condemn this couple , say good riddens , but that would not be the valid church view. We are called to forgive sinners and bring them closer to Christ. A good Catholic could talk to this couple and in time bring them back to the church in time.

There have been Times in my life that I have been so disgruntled by the change in the Church since VII that I have thought about going to the Orthodox. I could never do it as I could not make myself go into schism with Rome. I can voice my displeasure on what I see as abuse of the Liturgy since VII, about VII being improperly enacted IMHO. But In public matters of Faith I could part for the Church by separating myself from the Holy See and joining a schismatic group. Decent yes depart no.

We hare commanded By Christ and The Apostles to obey but not blindly.

You are certainly not alone in voicing your opinion and it is your right to do so. Many disagreements with the church come form misinformation or not fully unferstanding an issue. The best place to find out about issues is of couse first in your parish, there are also many adult formation classes that are offered by the diocese. Before you look at going else were, I would suggest looking into these options. After all, you are expected by the church to fully inform yourself. Many people don’t.

Peace,
FAB

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The documents did call for a change in the mass. The Novus Ordo according to the biships is now the ordinary form of the mass, meaning it is the mass to be used in most cases. Allowing the TLM does not replace it and it is considered extraordinary form of the mass.

It called for changes to the Mass the a complete new mass.

This was only a small part of the overall scope of Vatican II. It is the most visable, so perhaps the reason it gets the most attention.

 

[FAB]

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

As far as rules, the church calls us to have a fully developed conscience in how we lead our lives. Part of that is the teaching of the church. There are many aspects to doctrine, that if one does not follow or believe, the question would be why are they Catholic (i.e. the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist). There are other moral decisions that each one of us has to decide on our own after due dilagence of our own eduction. I have heard this before, “I just want the Church to tell me what’s right and wrong” , that takes away personal choice and personal freedoms to decide and think for oneself. In the end, the catichism and doctrine of the Church is to lead us to a closer relationship with God, but each individual has to make the choice to follow.

Peace,
FAB

You are correct the “they” are the Bishops and the Pope. And the last time i check they were also men. being as such they were capable of error as nay man is. As I could be. I am Catholic because I I believe what I say in the profession of faith in the Nicene Creed, I believe that My Lord Jesus founded One Holy Church. I am Catholic because I can do what the Bishops and the Holy Fathers tell me to do even if I disagree with them.

When you say that you have herd people say

"“I just want the Church to tell me what’s right and wrong” that takes away personal choice and personal freedoms to decide and think for oneself.

I have to disagree It means they want the church to make a stand. One is still free to chose right or wrong all we are asking for is the Church to take a stand. There are times ans circumstance that arise in people life that for whatever reason at that moment they can not make the distinction between right and wrong and if the Church has taken a stance at least they have that to hold on to.

Maybe I am just a simpleton but At one time it was a sin not to abstain from meat on all Friday of the year except for when a Major Feast ( Christmas for example ) fell on that day. Now It only during Lent that one must abstain. Were the Bishops that said it was a sin during the whole of the year Wrong or were the One that said only during Lent is it a sin? I don’t know. I am sure there are other on here that can point out other changes were enacted after 1965 that can be just as questionable. I truly believe that the Holy Spirit was with the council of VII. I have my doubts about that when it comes to the way and the speed in which they were done. As I said I may be a simpleton but maybe that is the whole point of what Traditionalist are trying to say. Its no Just the TML verses the NO. Its the whole package.

The Church is suppose to be our home. the Priest and Bishops are parents. And just as in a home if the rules are not laid down and enforced the house is in Chaos.

Maybe I am just a isolated case of a person that grew up in a split home with little to know religious teaching during the early years then as a young teen on his own made the decision to come to the church ( mid 70’s ) and they still had not figured out how to teach the Changes Of VII yet?

 

[FAB]

You are correct the “they” are the Bishops and the Pope. And the last time i check they were also men. being as such they were capable of error as nay man is. As I could be. I am Catholic because I I believe what I say in the profession of faith in the Nicene Creed, I believe that My Lord Jesus founded One Holy Church. I am Catholic because I can do what the Bishops and the Holy Fathers tell me to do even if I disagree with them.

Now you have me a bit confused. First you say you want the Magisterium to lay down rules, then you want to disagree with the ones you don’t agree with. It’s hard to have it both ways. You forgot in the Creed Apostolic. The Magisterium are considerered a direct line form the Apostals. As the Apostals were lead by the Holy Spirit in the guidance of the Church, so are these men who make up the Magisterium today.

When you say that you have herd people say I have to disagree It means they want the church to make a stand. One is still free to chose right or wrong all we are asking for is the Church to take a stand. There are times ans circumstance that arise in people life that for whatever reason at that moment they can not make the distinction between right and wrong and if the Church has taken a stance at least they have that to hold on to.

The Catichism of the church is full of what is right and wrong and is one one the best guides for people to follow to make right decisions.

Maybe I am just a simpleton but At one time it was a sin not to abstain from meat on all Friday of the year except for when a Major Feast ( Christmas for example ) fell on that day. Now It only during Lent that one must abstain. Were the Bishops that said it was a sin during the whole of the year Wrong or were the One that said only during Lent is it a sin?

This is one of those points of leagalizm. One has to go back to the origins of this fast. It was a way to remember the suffering of our Lord, to give up something in union with Christ. Over the years it lost it’s meaning. Often people would eat better on Friday than the rest of the week. Is it a sacrafice to eat Shrimp at $6.00 a pound instead of hambuger @ $2.00 a pound? The reason behind the act was lost. Thus as part of Vatican II the emphasis went back to the true meaning and during the season on which we should concentrate on prayer and self reflection, Lent.

The Church is suppose to be our home. the Priest and Bishops are parents. And just as in a home if the rules are not laid down and enforced the house is in Chaos.

Your idea of the church with the Pope and bishops on top and the people on the bottom being given instructions no longer exist. The model is one of teachers who have something to give to the students but also continue to learn from the students. Instead of a pyamid model, a circle.

Maybe I am just a isolated case of a person that grew up in a split home with little to know religious teaching during the early years then as a young teen on his own made the decision to come to the church ( mid 70’s ) and they still had not figured out how to teach the Changes Of VII yet?

I rejoice that you found a home in the church. As I indicated to you before, try taking adult formation classes. I have taken them for many years as formation toward doing ministry in my church. I thought I new my faith, I found out that I knew much less than I thought and I’m what you might call a cradle to grave Catholic. The classes opened a whole new world for me and even a deeper love for my faith and it’s traditons. I know what you will find waht you are looking far with prayer and the Holy Spirit as your guide on your path.

May the Peace of Christ be with you,
FAB

 

[AlexV]

Those “classes” didn’t apparently cover the fact that Vatican II had about nothing to say re: Friday penitence.

 

[stmaria]

This is one of those points of leagalizm. One has to go back to the origins of this fast. It was a way to remember the suffering of our Lord, to give up something in union with Christ. Over the years it lost it’s meaning. Often people would eat better on Friday than the rest of the week. Is it a sacrafice to eat Shrimp at $6.00 a pound instead of hambuger @ $2.00 a pound

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

[QUO

TE=FAB;3292640]Now you have me a bit confused. First you say you want the Magisterium to lay down rules, then you want to disagree with the ones you don’t agree with. It’s hard to have it both ways. You forgot in the Creed Apostolic. The Magisterium are considerered a direct line form the Apostals. As the Apostals were lead by the Holy Spirit in the guidance of the Church, so are these men who make up the Magisterium today.

The problem is that they did not make rules they took rules softened them up changes them and made them into some what strongly suggested guidelines.

The Catichism of the church is full of what is right and wrong and is one one the best guides for people to follow to make right decisions.

I agree that the Catechism such be a great place to go for Answer to questions of Faith and Church teaching. Unfortunately finding people now days that agree on what these teaching are is a job all into itself again written as guideline.

This is one of those points of leagalizm. One has to go back to the origins of this fast. It was a way to remember the suffering of our Lord, to give up something in union with Christ. Over the years it lost it’s meaning. Often people would eat better on Friday than the rest of the week. Is it a sacrafice to eat Shrimp at $6.00 a pound instead of hambuger @ $2.00 a pound? The reason behind the act was lost. Thus as part of Vatican II the emphasis went back to the true meaning and during the season on which we should concentrate on prayer and self reflection, Lent.

I don’t know about anyone else but in my house we are eating store brand tuna fish salad, frozen fish, and peanut butter.I do’t know of any one of my parents and grandparents ages that were eating Shrimp and so forth on Fridays back in the day either. And are you saying that we only need to remember that during Lent now? We don’t need to think about it the rest of the year. I placed the bold on that part above as that is what I have been saying the true points of VII were to increase the Teaching of why we do what we do not change what we do.

Your idea of the church with the Pope and bishops on top and the people on the bottom being given instructions no longer exist. The model is one of teachers who have something to give to the students but also continue to learn from the students. Instead of a pyramid model, a circle.

Have you ever tried to get some were going in a circle? We need leaders to follow. Not in blind obedience, but leader just the same.
If the laity have a problem or an idea we do need to be able to take them to our Priests and Bishops. But when It comes to the Church they make the Rules not the laity. Christ Told the Apostle
to Spread the Gospel and instruct all the world. He did not go out and discuss it with them and see what you come up with.

I rejoice that you found a home in the church. As I indicated to you before, try taking adult formation classes. I have taken them for many years as formation toward doing ministry in my church. I thought I new my faith, I found out that I knew much less than I thought and I’m what you might call a cradle to grave Catholic. The classes opened a whole new world for me and even a deeper love for my faith and it’s traditions. I know what you will find what you are looking far with prayer and the Holy Spirit as your guide on your path.

I have plans to as well as I am also In deep prayer concerning the Priesthood. There are some a few obstacles that I have to overcome for that to happen , but I have faith that it It is in Gods plan I will be given the ability to overcome them. If not God has some other way for me to be of use to him ans will make that clear In his time.

May the Peace of Christ be with you
FAB

And with your Spirit.

 

[FAB]

Those “classes” didn’t apparently cover the fact that Vatican II had about nothing to say re: Friday penitence.

Documents since have and the reasoning came from Vatican II

 

[FAB]

FAB;3292640:

Are you kidding? We ate fish sticks at home or went to a fish fry at the Knight of Columbus hall. We certainly didn’t have a good old time and fill up on shrimp. Back then Catholics had large families. They had to eat at home
.
Oh Please. VII back to the true meaning? They wanted to make it easy. Just like Saturday mass fullfilling Sunday obligation. That was changed to make it “easier”. All that did was make a mockery of Sunday, the Lords Day!

Too bad.

Its a circus, I mean, a circle alright.

You apparently missed my point.

 

[FAB]

[QUO

The problem is that they did not make rules they took rules softened them up changes them and made them into some what strongly suggested guidelines.

I agree that the Catechism such be a great place to go for Answer to questions of Faith and Church teaching. Unfortunately finding people now days that agree on what these teaching are is a job all into itself again written as guideline.

I don’t know about anyone else but in my house we are eating store brand tuna fish salad, frozen fish, and peanut butter.I do’t know of any one of my parents and grandparents ages that were eating Shrimp and so forth on Fridays back in the day either. And are you saying that we only need to remember that during Lent now? We don’t need to think about it the rest of the year. I placed the bold on that part above as that is what I have been saying the true points of VII were to increase the Teaching of why we do what we do not change what we do.

Have you ever tried to get some were going in a circle? We need leaders to follow. Not in blind obedience, but leader just the same.
If the laity have a problem or an idea we do need to be able to take them to our Priests and Bishops. But when It comes to the Church they make the Rules not the laity. Christ Told the Apostle
to Spread the Gospel and instruct all the world. He did not go out and discuss it with them and see what you come up with.

I have plans to as well as I am also In deep prayer concerning the Priesthood. There are some a few obstacles that I have to overcome for that to happen , but I have faith that it It is in Gods plan I will be given the ability to overcome them. If not God has some other way for me to be of use to him ans will make that clear In his time.

And with your Spirit.

It is good that you are considering going into the priest hood. After decerning you may find that God is calling you serve him in that mannor. As part of your disernment, I strongly suggest that you go through what is called in our Diocese; Formation Toward Christian Mininistry classes. You as do many who frequent this site have many misunderstandings and misconceptions of Vatican II and what just seems to be an unreasonable anger that I am at a lost to understand.
There were deep problems with were the church was at prior to 1963, Since many had alteady recongnized the problems prior to that time, the winds of change had already begun. Vatican II recognized the need for change and made them. Many to this day either don’t understand, which is the reason for adult education, or don’t want to understand the changes or the reason behind them.

A forum like this allows people to vent, but as a way to more deeply and understand our faith, it is the last place to go. I recently heard a term that describes it well; e-magisterium. Which are people communicating with each other but the danger is there is a great deal of misinormation, legalism and scupulosity. There is a lot of complants, but not much union, becoming the body of Christ, or spiritulism to come closer to Christ.
I do pray that all of you and myself, on this pilgrimage to become closer and more like our Lord Jesus Christ. That we take his lesson of love our neigbor to heart and spead the good news to all nations.
As for me, I think I’ll give this site up for Lent and beyond. It’s been interesting.
May the peace of Christ love be with each of you.
FAB
[/quote]

 

[AlexV]

Absolutely nothing about the discipline of Fridays stems from “Vatican II”. All too often everything done since the Year Zero (i.e., 1963) is credited to that Council.