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dessert
Guest
Gotta go watch my Packers winnn Talk later
Barb
Barb
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother Alexius,
Blessings,
Marduk
Sorry if it seemed like I was bringing up the old ditheism caricature. I really did not intend to. In fact, if I understood the Eastern theology as proposing ditheism, I could not very well simultaneously assume there might be a contradiction. I imagine a contradiction ONLY because I know that when you say the Energy IS God and the Essence IS God, you are referring to the SAME one God. But since the Eastern theology defines two things of opposing qualities (one to be able to communicate with creation, the other not) to be the same God, thus do I imagine the contradiction.OK. I understand your idea, but I don’t see it as two separate gods, but rather One God who reveals, yet remains utterly unknown…
Blessings,
Marduk
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East_and_West
Guest
I am not claiming that Hesychasts profess belief in more than one God. However, I believe that ditheism is the logical consequence of their theology and thus such a system is internally inconsistant.
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother East and West,
Blessings,
Marduk
One can suppose there is that possible danger, but there is also a possible danger of the same with regards to filioque. But we cannot judge each other based on possible extrapolations of our doctrines, but on what we actually teach.
Blessings,
Marduk
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The_Augustinian
Guest
“I am not claiming that Catholics worship Mary. However, I believe that Mariolatry is the logical consequence of their theology and thus is inherently idolatrous.”
Yes, this is how you come off as sounding.
Anyway, East and West’s position is based off of his own misconceptions of the doctrine. I took the bold liberty of posting some of his arguments on this forum to see how they hold up to theological scrutiny and read this article among several others. Basically, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
This discussion is tiresome. I’ve done debate before and this brings back memories. My opponents always stuck to their position no matter what. Why? If they didn’t they would lose of course.
Well, this shouldn’t be that kind of debate. We should try to seek the Truth and not be ideologues! In the end, I don’t think our views on the subject are totally irreconcilable. May God bless you this Nativity Fast. Pray for me a sinner.
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East_and_West
Guest
The reason that your opponents don’t change their minds is that the postion you are defending is completely and utterly utenable form a philosophical/theological perspective. You may like the position. You may be believe it to be right. But that does not make it reasonable or valid. Aquinas makes so much more sense than Palamas on this point.
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Woodstock
Guest
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East_and_West
Guest
I bet you are. I can be quite bombastic at times. Perhaps you should pray for me.Oh yeah. Well I bet I’m more humble than you!
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Woodstock
Guest
I bet you are. I can be quite bombastic at times. Perhaps you should pray for me.
Please pray for me as well.
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StRaphael
Guest
Interestingly, Dr. Michael Liccione is one of those “good Catholic philosophy” bloggers{1} who affirms the truth of the Essence-Energies distinction{2} and casually refers to Gregory Palamas as a Saint.{3}
{1} forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=191244&highlight=liccione
{2} mliccione.blogspot.com/search?q=palamas
{3} See the ongoing thread about the sainthood of Gregory Palamas @ forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=201605. See especially post #142 by Ghosty on page 10.
{1} forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=191244&highlight=liccione
{2} mliccione.blogspot.com/search?q=palamas
{3} See the ongoing thread about the sainthood of Gregory Palamas @ forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=201605. See especially post #142 by Ghosty on page 10.
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dessert
Guest
Ghosty, you are so correct to draw us to the oneness of God.Remember that in a theological/philosophical context complexity is actually a limiting factor, not something that indicates lofty power. A complex thing can only work with all its parts, which means that it is actually “weaker” than a simple thing that has no parts.
Being simple doesn’t mean that the thing is low or can’t cause infinite effects. On the contrary it means that it contains within its “oneness” ALL of the things that merely complex things contain in their parts. Furthermore, something that is simple can’t be divided up in any way, whereas something that is complex can be taken apart, and any portion of it is less than the sum of the whole. Infinity is actually utter simplicity, because any given “section” of it is also infinite. In God there is no portion, nothing in Him is less than God; that is what simplicity means in a theological context. So we should never say that God is complex.
Peace and God bless!
I expect that my own complex issues get in the way, thank you for a good post.
Barbara
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Ghosty
Guest
I’m just glad that you didn’t take offense at my post. After re-reading it I cringed at my forwardness.Ghosty, you are so correct to draw us to the oneness of God.
I expect that my own complex issues get in the way, thank you for a good post.
Barbara
God bless, and have a blessed Advent Season (or the non-Latin equivalent if you are not Latin).
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dessert
Guest
You too have a blessing even if for one moment. I like the seasons and the change as there is usually a surprise or two.I’m just glad that you didn’t take offense at my post. After re-reading it I cringed at my forwardness.
God bless, and have a blessed Advent Season (or the non-Latin equivalent if you are not Latin).
We recieved an ice storm which canceled our concert but we practiced on friday did the entire gig and sounded so great, at dress rehearsel but no audience, but we were together with the orcheststra and all but ah now I know what it is like to get canceled:shrug: A humbling experience. The most highest moment when we sang Emmanuel with all of our hearts, I wish we had it on tape.
God was with us and the energies but one person in the audience, and we praised Him.I hope you hear a concert or two, I have a couple to go to.
Bless you and yours!
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dbacks5439
Guest
In context, I believe he is writing that for the Church Militant. He makes no mention of how we experience God in Heaven, just on Earth.
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Ghosty
Guest
This is a very important point to make. All of the quotes from Eastern Fathers that seem to deny the Beatific Vision invariably refer to our experience in this life. Scripture is quite clear that our experience in the next life will not be like that of Moses; we will not see “the back” of God, but will see Him “face to face”. That is the Glorious and mysterious promise of the Resurrection and Beatific Vision, and is utterly beyond what we can understand here and now, with the only possible exceptions being those who experience ecstatic mystical union, which in all cases defies any attempt at description anyway.
Peace and God bless!
T
The_Augustinian
Guest
Do you have evidence that they made such a distinction?
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anthony022071
Guest
Basil is right to say that we know God from his energies (or activities),but is almost like false humility to say that we cannot know anything about his essence. How can we make a dichotomy between knowledge of the energies and knowledge of the essence? For what purpose did the Logos,which means word and reason,become incarnate? to confirm us in our ignorance of God?
The essence of God is expressed and made known through his activities,and the essence is love.
1st Letter of John:
“We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him.”
“In this way the love of God was revealed to us: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him.”
“The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his command ments.”
Gospel of John 14,7-11:
If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him."
Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.
Jesus is telling the disciples to know the Father and Son through the works. To recognize what is behind the works is to recognize the essence of God.
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dessert
Guest
Yes I agree that this is the reason the Pope Benedict XVI wrote his first letter as God is LOve. He did not want to seperate the Love from the act. I left some of your post out but thought I would write more but you said it all in a nutshell. So I had to edit my post because I pushed the submit button instead of enter. Oh it is late I need some rest.
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Ghosty
Guest
First because they never refer to the next life in such descriptions, but are rather discussing knowledge of God with non-Christian philosophers who were arguing against any knowledge of God in this life. Second because if they did then they’d be directly contradicting Scripture. The famous Eastern references to Moses only seeing the “back” of God can not apply to the next life at all, because St. Paul explicitly states that we will see God “face to face”, and St. John says “we will see Him as He is”.
1 Corinthians 13:12
1 John 3:1-2
What we see and know in this life is incomparable to what we will see and know in the next. There are other parts of Scripture that allude to this fact, but these two quotes are the most obvious and explicit.
The Fathers did not go into detail discussing these things with non-Christians because there was no way to do so, and furthermore no one can communicate these things anyway, as St. Paul said “I heard words that are not given to man to speak” when talking about his ecstatic experience. All we can say here in this life is that we will see and know God “as He is”, and leave it at that; the Latin term for this is the Beatific Vision, something that we can’t possess here.
Peace and God bless!
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dessert
Guest
Just we beware that Satan likes to steal the E/E from you and rob us of our joys, so protect what is given with prayer and praise.
This has happened to me numerous times dragging me into a depression.
aprayer
“Jesus, please fill those empty corners of my life with your abundant provisions ---- even those dark corners caused by my sin. Help me, Lord, to trust in you.”
the WORD among us
This has happened to me numerous times dragging me into a depression.
aprayer
“Jesus, please fill those empty corners of my life with your abundant provisions ---- even those dark corners caused by my sin. Help me, Lord, to trust in you.”
the WORD among us
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