Debate on John 20 passage

[EugeneJ3]

Hi all,

I am discussing the passage from John 20 where Jesus breathes on the Apostles and then gives them the authority to forgive sins.

This is what the other person stated:

"We’re also not helped by the translation of the verse in question. Even the ESV doesn’t get it completely right. If we go back to John 20:23 in the original Greek manuscripts, it takes on rather a different meaning than the one commonly assumed. Probably the closest accurate translation we can get to it in English would be:

Whosoever sins you remit (ie. forgive), shall have already been forgiven them, and whosoever sins you retain (ie. don’t forgive) shall already not been forgiven them.

The apostles did not actually forgive sin as such, but they proclaimed forgiveness based upon the gospel message."

How do I counter this?

Thanks,
Eugene

 

[Bastoune]

So what?

1. The Greek is ambiguous… meaning that the idea is not really founded in certainty.
2. Again, so what? The Apostles don’t “really” forgive sins? Well surely they don’t! GOD DOES! But God uses them as ministers of His grace. So how does that contradict Confession?
3. This link covers some of that: catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp
4. The retention and forgiveness nevertheless fall into the hands of the clergy here.

 

[Bastoune]

I find that it is important to let the non-Catholic know that Catholics believe that we are having our sins forgiven by God not man. Many persons have told me that they believe that Catholics think that a priest can forgive sins on his own authority apart from God. This seems a strange and unwarranted thought to us Catholics, but many non-Catholics think it is true.

Explain that we confession our sins directly to God and ask Him for forgiveness. However, since it was God who was offended by sin, it is God who has the right to determine how sin is to be forgiven. “The sinner wounds God’s honor and love” (Catechism, no.1487). We have no right to tell God how He should forgive sin. Catholics believe that God has made it very clear how He will forgive our sins (see John 20:20-23). It is through the priest in the sacrament of Penance that God has chosen as the way that He will forgive sins.
**
This does not mean that only Catholics can be forgiven. God can, and does, make exceptions to His rules. The normative way to have one’s sins forgiven is through Penance.**

Explain that while Jesus walked the earth he chose to forgive sins directly (see Matthew 9:1-8; Luke 7:44-50; John 8:10-11). After his Ascension back to the Father, Jesus chose to forgive sin through the priests of his Church. He told them, “As the Father sent me, so I send you” (John 20:21). Jesus was sent to reconcile us to the Father by the forgiveness of sins. “God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him” (John 3:17). “Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29).

Explain that we Catholics believe that Jesus authorized the Apostles, the first Catholic clergy, to forgive sins in his name. “Then he breathed on them and said: ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound’” (John 20:22-23; cf. Matthew 18:18).

Also point out that it is highly significant that we read, “Then he (Jesus) breathed on them.”

There is only one other instance in the Bible of God breathing on man. “Then the Lord God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being” (Genesis 2:7).

God gave man the natural life-force at man’s creation. Jesus gave his priests the supernatural life-force at their re-creation. “Receive the Holy Spirit.” The Apostles became new creations.

Explain that the reception of the Holy Spirit it what makes it possible for priests, mere men, to handle the great responsibility of continuing the saving work of our Lord. “The mission of Christ and the Holy Spirit is brought to completion in the Church, which is the body of Christ and the Temple of the Holy Spirit” (Catechism, no.737).

Further, you can educate your friends in what the early Christians had to say about Penance.

en.allexperts.com/q/Catholics-955/Penance.htm

scripturecatholic.com/confession.html

It’s important to note that it is as MAN and not as God that Jesus forgave sins (cf. Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10).

Neh. 9:2-3 & Numbers 5:7 - the Israelites stood before the assembly and confessed sins publicly and interceded for each other.

My question would be: **WHY CONFESS YOUR SINS IF THEY ARE ALREADY FORGIVEN, if that’s the case, through the “Gospel”? **

Sounds like they don’t believe any confession of sins is necessary… which isn’t in line with the Gospel.

 

[Bastoune]

Remember, the CHURCH is the Body of Christ, continuing Jesus Christ’s work on Earth in His stead (as “the light of the world”).

Part of that includes hearing and forgiving sin:

scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

It just comes down to the fact that the opponents of oral confession are just rebelling against the God-given ecclesiastical authority passed through Apostolic Succession.