Debate on Romans

[Pax]

SyCarl,

Thanks for your thoughtful post…we have much in common. I agree with many things that you wrote.

I would also like to compliment you on the way you present yourself and interact with others on the forums. You express yourself with Christian charity, and I thank you for that.

I did claim that I believe that James 2 is a clarification concerning Paul’s teaching. The date that the letters were written is in my opinion immaterial. Paul taught for many years before going to Rome near the end of his life. Long before this time he went up to Jerusalem to meet with James, Peter, and John to confirm his teaching in the gospel. What Paul taught to the Romans he likewise taught in all the churches he visited. James, Peter, and John would be well aware of what Paul taught, and would promptly help to keep the Church on track with their own epistles if things were misunderstood by those that read or listened to Paul or anyone else that was a teacher.

It is no accident that both James letter and Peter’s letters are placed in the bible after the letters of Paul. They help to clarify his teachings and correct erroneous ideas about them. Peter even says that there are things in Paul’s letters that are difficult to understand and that some people twist them as they do the other scriptures to their own destruction.[2 Peter 3:15-16]

Moreover, Paul himself says that people twist his teachings. This becomes clear in Romans 3:1-8 where Paul says the following:

“THEN WHAT advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every man be false, as it is written, “That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and prevail when thou art judged.” But if our wickedness serves to show the justice of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my falsehood God’s truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?–as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.”

No apostle wrote anything in any of their letters that indicates that any apostle other than Paul was difficult to understand or that their teachings might be getting twisted. This was only said about Paul and it is indicative of why I made the claim about James and Peter clarifying what Paul taught against those that might misunderstand him.

 

[Pax]

Pax:

With respect to Hebrews 11, the whole tenor of the chapter is set by the first two verses.

Each person was given as an example of faith, not of works. It was faith that justified them and any additional works were proof of that justification. Of course the Protestant view does not deny that works follow and are the result of faith. However works are not the cause of justification, which is through faith.

Finally, although you posts were very comprehensive they did not really address my point that James and Paul are talking about two different things. James is dealing with justification in the sense of showing or proving that we have faith while Paul deals with justification before God.

The examples in Hebrews 11 as well the other examples of Abraham being justified are examples of faith. That is a given. Nevertheless, each instance cited is an example of works that completes the faith. In each instance there would be no justification associated with the faith that was not completed by the works in each instance. This to me is obvious and it represents more than mere evidence especially since James says that faith is “completed” by works.

 

[Pax]

Pax:

.
…

Finally, although you posts were very comprehensive they did not really address my point that James and Paul are talking about two different things. James is dealing with justification in the sense of showing or proving that we have faith while Paul deals with justification before God.

Here is my take on James.

The probative accent that some argue for in James is not exegetically sound. James and Paul do not mean something different when using the terms justified, faith and works. Neither apostle would argue that we become justified by the works of the Law. Justification comes by way of God’s grace. The reference in James to Abraham in Genesis is different from that of Paul but there is an important linkage between them that is unmistakable. Some will attempt to argue that, “Whereas Paul is concerned with the question, how may a man achieve right standing before God, and turns to Gen 15:6 to find his answer, James is concerned with the question, how is a man to demonstrate that he has true faith and is therefore actually justified before God turns to Gen 22:9-10, as the probative “fulfillment” of Gen 15:6 (see Gen 22:12), to find his answer (2:21) This explanation simply does not work. First of all, the argument depends on the “idea” that James is referring to a demonstration of faith. This simply is not the case. The context of James chapter 2 is not established by the phrase “You see” or the phrase “show me.” Instead James teachings in chapter 2 are established by what he said earlier in Chapter 1 including this remark from James 1:22. “But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.” When James says “You see” he is merely pointing out that the reader of his letter should at that point in his discourse understand that a man is in fact justified by works and not by faith alone. We know this because James had just finished making a large part of his argument to that end. The alternative idea about what he means by “you see” is erroneous. This is made clear by the set up in verse 20 that says, “Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? It is after this that James points to Abraham sacrificing Isaac. It is only after doing so that James says, “You see” as a logical linguistic follow up to having “shown” that Abraham was justified by works. Once the true teaching is stated and shown by the example of Abraham, James would logically say, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Any other use of “Show me” doesn’t establish the opposing view either. James says in verse18, “But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” This does not mean that works are simply evidence of justifying faith. The apostle is telling us that if you do not have works that you are not justified. Let me demonstrate this by substituting some words in the quote from James that will illustrate exactly what he means to say.

Try this:

But some one will say, you have a marriage and I have a relationship. Show me your marriage apart from the relationship, and I by my relationship will show you my marriage. This word picture clearly illustrates what the apostle is getting at. You do not have saving faith without works any more than you have a marriage without a relationship.

The linkage between faith and works cannot be broken. Faith and works are inextricably intertwined and cannot be separated. That is why James uses the powerful analogy of the body and spirit in verse 26 where he says, “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” Think about this profound statement. Faith is compared with the body and works are compared to the spirit. The body and spirit together make up a living human being. You cannot have a living human being without both together. Likewise you cannot have a justifying faith without works, and James tells us that faith without works is dead and that it cannot save you. This cannot mean that works are simply the demonstration of saving faith. God knows all things and he does not need a demonstration by works to know if a man has faith. God requires that a man have both faith and works to be justified, and this is precisely why James hammers on this point.

James says that we are justified “by works” three times in Chapter 2 of his epistle. He also says that faith is “completed by works.” He never says anything like, “works are a demonstration of faith” nor does he suggest that his explanation is “probative in nature.” You have to ignore his clear and emphatic words and must heavily massage others to make any kind of case to support the alternative position.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

There is another problem with the contention about James reference to Gen 22:9-10 and its connection to Gen 15:6. You must first understand the purpose and design of James discourse on faith and works. James is most likely correcting anyone that has misunderstood Paul’s teaching. We know this because James writes his discourse with sarcasm in such a way as to make a caricature of the error of those that misunderstand Paul. James is so down on the idea of salvation by faith alone that he goes to the extreme of saying, “Even the demons believe–and shudder.” James even calls the man who believes that he is justified by faith alone “shallow.” Some translations use the words, “vain man, fool, empty person, or idle boaster.” Moreover, James also uses an example of Abraham being justified before God that is different from the one Paul uses. James makes it clear that Abraham was “justified” when he was ready to sacrifice Isaac when he says in verse 21, “Was not Abraham our father “justified” by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” This is a complete thought and shows the importance of obedience to God and doing the works “that God prepared beforehand.” James could have left it at that but he explains the relationship of faith and works in justification further by going on to say, “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,“ James says “completed.” This is much different than saying that works are a demonstration of faith.

Finally, James then makes the connection to Gen 15:6 when he then says, “and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.” This statement by James IHMO has a two-fold purpose. First of all James wants everybody to see that he is teaching something that is connected to the teaching of Paul. Secondly, he wants to make it clear that he is correcting a misunderstanding of Paul’s teaching and that he is giving a clarification. He clearly shows that justification is not a one time event because he uses a different event than Paul used. James could have just as easily made his argument using Genesis 15:6 by pointing out that Abraham’s actions of having marital relations with Sarah completed his faith concerning his descendents. He chose, however, to use a separate example and then connects it to 15:6 by saying, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.” In both examples Abraham believed. In both examples Abraham completed his faith with works. In both examples Abraham’s completed faith is reckoned to him as righteousness. In both examples Abraham was thus called a friend of God. These same things can be said about Abraham when he “received divine approval” [see Heb 11:1-2] for “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.”[Heb 11:8-9] This represents a third example of Abraham being justified in the sight of God.

Paul is not talking only about justification as a verdict which God declares when he pardons and imputes righteousness to the ungodly. This juridical dimension is certainly in Paul’s letters but the dimension of being a new creation in Jesus Christ is also part of Paul’s message about justification. That is why Paul speaks extensively of dying to sin and living to righteousness in the Holy Spirit. That is why Paul talks about being “free from sin.” This means to be free from committing sin as well as being forgiven for past sins. Paul spends all of Romans Chapter 6 explaining that the justified can no longer engage in sin. He even says this, “Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But then what return did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” It is obvious that Paul teaches that a Christian can die in sin and not be given eternal life in heaven. Paul does not refer to being a slave to righteousness as a demonstration of faith. He is teaching the same thing that James is teaching.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

Our “initial justification” cannot be appropriated or acquired by our doing good works in advance of God’s grace. This is the message that Paul is emphasizing because of the heresy of the Judaizers. God gives us grace and quickens us. He gives us the gift of faith. He literally enables us to “believe.” It is still us that do the believing but it is God that makes it possible for us to do so. Likewise, in the same manner that God enables us to believe in the gospel, God also makes us a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works at the moment that we are initially justified.[Eph 2:8-10] This point is absolutely crucial to understanding justification. If you make justification merely a juridical decree, then you have truncated the true definition. Unfortunately, this is exactly what many Protestants do. An example of this is as follows:

James Buchanan states that justification by faith is a legal or forensic term used in scripture to denote the acceptance of anyone as righteous in the sight of God.

The Westminster statement on justification says:
“Justification is altogether a legal declarative act on God’s part as the supreme judge. We deny that justification is any sense a moral transformation or inner renewal. In justification, God legally declares the sinner who in himself is still guilty and polluted to be righteous in Christ. Justification involves only the legal imputation or legal account of the perfect righteousness of Christ to the sinner. We deny that justification is by a grace at conversion that enables sinners to do the law unto their justification.”

Please notice that this position denies everything there is in scripture concerning being born anew, being a new creation, and being empowered by grace at the point of justification. This view only recognizes the juridical dimension of justification and clearly departs from what is stated in Eph 2:8-10. This view is what determines the Protestant interpretation of what Paul and James are stating rather than allowing the scriptures to determine the doctrine.

Some might go on to say,

James intends by “justified” the verdict which God declares when the actually (previously) justified man has demonstrated his actual righteous state by obedience and good works.

This kind of argument is erroneous. There is no valid distinction concerning the verdict….you are either justified or you are not justified. If Abraham had not followed up with marital relations with Sarah by grace in the faith of God’s promises, the promise of his heirs being as numerous as the stars would not be fulfilled and Abraham’s faith would have been a dead faith and he would not have been justified. God gave Abraham both the grace to believe and the grace to do what was required to fulfill the promise concerning his descendents.

 

[Odell]

good info Pax thanks

 

[SyCarl]

Pax:

At this point I am only going to comment on your quote from the Westminister Confession of Faith.

Unforturnately, many Catholics don’t realize that Protestants explain salvation in four parts, dealing with them separately although some may occur or start at the same time. Theses parts are regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification.

The renewal and new creation occur in what we term as regeneration where the Holy Spirit infuses us with a new nature that makes us love God and want to please him, while at the same time giving us the ability to do so. We become capable of trying to be righteous. In another part of the Westminster Confession this is set out.

CHAPTER 10
Of Effectual Calling

1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.

CHAPTER 13
Of Sanctification

1. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

1. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part; whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.

1. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome; and so, the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

opc.org/wcf.html

Justification is viewed as forensic judgement whereby we are viewed as not guilty. It is imputed because we are not yet perfect and still have the remains of our old sin nature and can still sin.

In a sense though we have been made righteous by regeneration to the extent that we can strive to be so although imperfectly. Sanctification is the life long effort to become more holy which is completed by glorification in the next life.

 

[onenow1]

HI, All
Why complicate things folks, when the obvious is written.

Read Matt 25:31:46. It is all about doing good works in this life. Then there is Rev 14:13, “And I heard a voice from Heaven saying, ‘Write: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them.’” Is that clear enough that works are needed in addition to faith? Still not convinced? Then how about another crystal clear verse? Rev 22:12, “Behold, I come quickly! And My reward is with Me, to render to each one according to his works.”

What I really like about Rev. 22: 12, is the mercy of God, as far as it does not say I must believe in Christ, because the Lord Knows not all will ever hear abuot Christ, so we must leave this up to God’s divine interventioon, as I recall the Lord said I have not come for the rightious therefore, Jesus indeed will be the judge no matter what.

Peace, OneNow1:twocents

 

[Pax]

Pax:

At this point I am only going to comment on your quote from the Westminister Confession of Faith.

Unforturnately, many Catholics don’t realize that Protestants explain salvation in four parts, dealing with them separately although some may occur or start at the same time. Theses parts are regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification.

The renewal and new creation occur in what we term as regeneration where the Holy Spirit infuses us with a new nature that makes us love God and want to please him, while at the same time giving us the ability to do so. We become capable of trying to be righteous. In another part of the Westminster Confession this is set out.

opc.org/wcf.html

Justification is viewed as forensic judgement whereby we are viewed as not guilty. It is imputed because we are not yet perfect and still have the remains of our old sin nature and can still sin.

In a sense though we have been made righteous by regeneration to the extent that we can strive to be so although imperfectly. Sanctification is the life long effort to become more holy which is completed by glorification in the next life.

SyCarl,

I am aware of the additional items that you quoted from the Westminster Confession. Likewise, Lutherans have another take on all of this. I focused on justification and its meaning from the Catholic point of view versus the Calvinist view. I did not mean to diminish the other elements that you quoted. Since I rattled on at great length I had to stick with the points I made.

I appreciate the fact that you posted the additional information. Obviously, my statements could be taken to mean that there wasn’t anything else referencing regeneration etc. Hopefully, your quotations will help clarify more fully where the differences in the view points exist.

Thanks for that.

 

[Aybee]

Pax:

Thank you SO MUCH for your comprehensive posts. I’ve been struggling with this issue, but the detail you provided, especially regarding the errors of exegeting this (and other related) passage/s a certain way, cleared up some questions I’ve had for quite a while.

THANK YOU again for taking the time!!!

 

[Teflon93]

Pax:

Thank you SO MUCH for your comprehensive posts. I’ve been struggling with this issue, but the detail you provided, especially regarding the errors of exegeting this (and other related) passage/s a certain way, cleared up some questions I’ve had for quite a while.

THANK YOU again for taking the time!!!

Hear, hear!

 

[Philthy]

SyCarl:

This appears clear from James 2:14. James says “What use is it, my bretheren **if someone says he has faith **but he has no works.” Notice he does not “if someone has faith”; he specifically speaks of someone who claims to have faith.

Did you ever, even once, consider that the reason he didn’t discuss “someone who *has *faith but not works” is because there IS NO SUCH THING as faith without works?? Think about everyone in the bible and everyone you know: is there a single person who you consider “faithful” who lacks good works? How could it possibly be? Are we not “God’s handiwork created in Christ Jesus for the good works which He has prepared in advance?” Eph 2:10 Get with it, man! Faith is ALWAYS accompanied by good works! Anyone who claims otherwise is lying or mistaken. That is the WHOLE POINT of the entire discourse. The only reality left for James to discuss is those who CLAIM (falsely) to have faith but who have no works…you know, faith ALONErs…and he condemns it in the very word of God. There is no need to over intellectualize what is being said in James - unless, of course, you are trying to fit into a theological box of your own making.

 

[SyCarl]

Did you ever, even once, consider that the reason he didn’t discuss “someone who *has *faith but not works” is because there IS NO SUCH THING as faith without works?? Think about everyone in the bible and everyone you know: is there a single person who you consider “faithful” who lacks good works? How could it possibly be? Are we not “God’s handiwork created in Christ Jesus for the good works which He has prepared in advance?” Eph 2:10 Get with it, man! Faith is ALWAYS accompanied by good works! Anyone who claims otherwise is lying or mistaken. That is the WHOLE POINT of the entire discourse. The only reality left for James to discuss is those who CLAIM (falsely) to have faith but who have no works…you know, faith ALONErs…and he condemns it in the very word of God. There is no need to over intellectualize what is being said in James - unless, of course, you are trying to fit into a theological box of your own making.

While it might not be common I would give the example of a deathbed conversion.

Origen seemed to think that the repentant thief was example.

It remains for us who are trying to affirm everything the apostle says, and to do so in the proper order, to inquire who is justified by faith alone, apart from works. If an example is required, I think it must suffice to mention the thief on the cross, who asked Christ to save him and was told: “Truly. This day you will be with me in paradise…A man is justified by faith. The works of the law can make no contribution to this. Where there is no faith which might justify the believer, even if there are works of the law these are not based on the foundation of faith. Even if they are good in themselves they cannot justify the one who does them, because faith is lacking, and faith is the mark of those who are justified by God.-Origen (Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 100)

Bede also gives the example of those who don’t have time for works.

The works mentioned here are works of faith. No one can have perfect works unless he has faith, but many have perfect faith without works, since they do not always have time to do them.-Bede (Concerning the Epistle of James) (Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 33.)

But the real point of faith alone is not to deny that works follow faith but to assert that our works do not merit salvation. Ephesians 2:8-10 specifically states that we are not saved by works but that we are saved for works.

 

[Philthy]

Romans 2:6-10 was dealt with in my previous post. Works are the evidence according to which we will be judged but are not the basis for our salvation.

This is meaningless. Either our works are consonant with the “basis for our salvation” and God judges them accordingly and harmoniously; or they are not and He judges differently with respect to the evidence and our salvation. The latter interpretation is entirely inconsistent with what Paul says. We are left with the obvious conclusion: our works in Christ matter.

James 2 … is talking about evidentiary aspects of works and justification in the eyes of men, who can only know your faith by your works…When it comes to Abraham, he says that Abraham was justified by works when he offered up Isaac. However Paul say that Abraham was not justified by works before God. So James must be talking about something other than before God. Again then, he is talking about proof that Abraham had faith.

Again, you are twisting violently. Notice the slippery slope that you fall into…You first close yourself into your self constructed box: the justification of James is “evidentiary” and is for the eyes of men. Once you are in that box you then reason that James’ discussion of Abraham’s justification is,therefore “evidentiary”. It seems entirely reasonable from inside the box, but for the rest of us its fatally flawed:
**Have you forgotten that there were no men around when Abraham offered Isaac on the alter? ** :ehh:
There were no “eyes of men” to see Abraham - only God’s eyes. Even worse for your position, the discussion in Gen 22 where these events occur start out with: God “tested” Abraham. We all know what being “tested” means. We test things to determine something about them. “God tested Abraham” Gen 22:1 - that is what Scripture tells us. It is only AFTER Abraham proceeds to offer Isaac on the altar that God declares “Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” Gen 22:13 And the blessings flow from there.
Back to James, James says that Abrahams act of offering Isaac is a fulfillment of the Scripture which says “Abraham believed God and his belief was credited as righteousness” Think about that. think hard. Faith and good works are inseparable. God’s judgement of our faith and our works will be entirely harmonious because they are one and the same. Now get working!

 

[Philthy]

While it might not be common I would give the example of a deathbed conversion. Origen seemed to think that the repentant thief was example. Bede also gives the example of those who don’t have time for works.

I could easily argue against this point…easily. Deathbed conversions aren’t biblical and we dont know the eternal fate of anyone as a result of a deathbed conversion. In addition, the thief on the cross produced the good work of bearing witness to Christ’s innocence. That was a good work. It’s an unecessary distraction, however, in moving us forward in the discussion. Lets both agree that if you are physically or temporally incapable of doing any works then you can be saved by faith apart from works.
It’s known as initial justification in Catholic theology.
So what does that mean for the other 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of us who aren’t limited? Its time to get real, man.

But the real point of faith alone is not to deny that works follow faith but to assert that our works do not merit salvation. Ephesians 2:8-10 specifically states that we are not saved by works but that we are saved for works.

It matters not one iota: it’s a meaningless distinction. If works ALWAYS follow faith then the ONLY barometer we have as humans to judge our salvation is our works. Agreed? :ehh:
Or do you wish to backpeddle on your claim that works follow faith?

 

[Teflon93]

What’s so silly about the “faith not works” debate is that one can see from the actions of the Apostles and the ECFs that their beliefs were Catholic and not Protestant regarding salvation.

If all one had to do to be saved was mere belief, then wouldn’t there have been a lot fewer martyrs?

St Peter’s faith was attested to by Christ himself (some justification there!) and yet St Peter denied him thrice to save his own skin, but later went to his excruciating death nonetheless, a death one presumes he could have avoided by similar means as he had before.

As noted, Abraham certainly had sufficient faith not to have had to go to the extent of placing his beloved son on the altar and preparing to slay him. Weeping Abraham holding the knife aloft doesn’t much resemble the Buddy Christ view of salvation to me, but then neither does St Peter and St Paul and all of the other martyrs dying in agony.

Perhaps it was the martyrs St James was thinking of when he wrote so powerfully.

 

[SyCarl]

This is meaningless. Either our works are consonant with the “basis for our salvation” and God judges them accordingly and harmoniously; or they are not and He judges differently with respect to the evidence and our salvation. The latter interpretation is entirely inconsistent with what Paul says. We are left with the obvious conclusion: our works in Christ matter.

**Have you forgotten that there were no men around when Abraham offered Isaac on the alter? ** :ehh:
There were no “eyes of men” to see Abraham - only God’s eyes. Even worse for your position, the discussion in Gen 22 where these events occur start out with: God “tested” Abraham. We all know what being “tested” means. We test things to determine something about them.
Back to James, James says that Abrahams act of offering Isaac is a fulfillment of the Scripture which says “Abraham believed God and his belief was credited as righteousness” Think about that. think hard. Faith and good works are inseparable. God’s judgement of our faith and our works will be entirely harmonious because they are one and the same. Now get working!

God tested Abraham for our benefit. God already knew. He didn’t need to test. But it is recorded in Scripture for our benefits. We are “the eyes of men.”

Bede also seems to think that Abraham’s works were proof of his righteousness, not the cause.

Abraham had such a vibrant faith in God that he was ready to do whatever God wanted him to. This is why his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness, and it was in order that we might know the full meaning of this that God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son. It was by his perfect accomplishment of God’s command that the faith which he had in his heart was shown to be perfect. .-Bede (Concerning the Epistle of James) (Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 32.)

 

[Odell]

While it might not be common I would give the example of a deathbed conversion.
.

That don’t work for you faith aloners either.

you who point the finger “well you believe the thief on the cross went to hell he did not have works…”

Catholics believe you need works faith and works BUT God is not bound by what he commands of us

Lets turn this around you believe Faith is absolutely necessary but what about the baby who dies before they have faith?

You got the example of the death bed conversion

We got the example of the baby death bed no conversion

The answer to all this is God is not bound by what he call us to do faith and works.

 

[SyCarl]

It matters not one iota: it’s a meaningless distinction. If works ALWAYS follow faith then the ONLY barometer we have as humans to judge our salvation is our works. Agreed? :ehh:
Or do you wish to backpeddle on your claim that works follow faith?

I would not presume to judge my salvation. I put all my trust in God and hope that I am living the way He wants me to. However I do not put any trust in my works. I may be doing them for the wrong reasons as the Pharisees or hypoctites did.

"But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.
(Matthew 23:5 NASB)

"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
(Matthew 6:1-2 NASB)

As Augustine wrote:

Thus the end of every commandment is charity, that is, every commandment has love for its aim. But whatever is done either through fear of punishment or from some other carnal motive, and has not for its principle that love which the Spirit of God sheds abroad in the heart, is not done as it ought to be done, however it may appear to men. For this love embraces both the love of God and the love of our neighbor, and “on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets,” we may add the Gospel and the apostles.-Augustine (The Enchiridion, Chapter 121)
newadvent.org/fathers/1302.htm

Even Paul was not prepared to judge himself. That is for God.

But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
(1 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB)

I hope I always remember that anything I do that might be good, is something that I already owe to God.

"He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? “So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”
(Luke 17:9-10 NASB)

 

[Philthy]

SyCarl:

God tested Abraham for our benefit.

Scripture?

God already knew. He didn’t need to test. But it is recorded in Scripture for our benefits. We are “the eyes of men.”

Scripture?

You seem to think I am denying good works.

Nope. You only deny that your works are the only means to judging your faith.

The reformers said “faith alone but not faith that is alone”. I agree with this. Someone who thinks he has faith but is not prepared to do good doesn’t have real faith.

Notice how carefully you must watch your words!! The question is not merely one of “preparedness”,it is, most often one of performance.
What you should be comfortable saying is, “Someone who thinks he has faith but does not do good does not have real faith.” The only exception being those restricted by time and ability. But you cant quite bring yourself to say that and simultaneousy preach faith alone - can you? That’s because if you did, the entire concept of sola fide becomes a meaningless phrase of no practical significance.

The works are the fruits of faith and flow from it but are not the reason for our salvation.

And what is your point, exactly? I mean other than, say, preaching to a Jewish person, what is the point of the distinction?
You’ve already said that works are how we know our faith, right? What is the point of preaching faith alone? It seems like a useless distinction to me.

Augustine also wrestled with the apparent conflict between Paul and James. He concludes that faith justified Abraham and works flowed from that faith and were the fruits of faith.

St Augustine was a Catholic Bishop with a capital C. Im not sure what you are attempting to imply by invoking him, but one thing is certain: Augustine was Catholic and held the same view of Justification as the Church. Treht has perhaps articulated that position more clearly than during Augustine’s lifetime, but if Augustine were alive then (or now) he would affirm exactly what the Church teaches even if it meant dismissing some of his personal opinions.