Debate Over ‘Right & Wrong’ Way to Pray

[hmikell7]

Recently a friend (we’ll call him Gregory) and I got in an argument over what advice to give to a mutual friend of ours who was just starting the process of converting into Catholicism from Buddhism. Our friend has grown used to the chanting of some of the mantras used by the more Eastern religions, and was having trouble adjusting to the Christian way of prayerful meditation, so he was asking us for advice on how to overcome it.

Gregory made the following suggestion: “I would try some Eastern Orthodox chant in either Russian or Greek (or any language you don’t understand). It’s holy and beautifully composed, and easy to “zone out” to since you don’t know the words. You could use Latin too, if you’re unfamiliar enough with it.

Greg’s response horrified me. The following was my response:
“Our Lord himself instructs us to never pray this way.
Matthew 6:7 ‘And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heart for their many words.”
This is of course not to say that standardized prayers are a bad thing (as Christ makes sure to show us by the introduction of the Our Father in Matthew 6:9-13), but that we must never be absent as to their meaning. We must, in our recitation of prayers, be mindful of their inflections, meanings, and purpose. Our prayers are an intimate communication with the Most High and must never be reduced to the status of mindless mantras.”

This is an ongoing debate, so I’m just reaching out here to see what everyone else thinks about this issue. I don’t want to spend too much time arguing my point if I’m wrong, but given the wordage of Mt. 6:7, I don’t really see how the kind of prayer Greg is suggesting could be condoned.

 

[mkoopman]

Watch Father Spitzer’s Universe on EWTN with your friend. Buy him father’s books and tapes. Try reading the interior castle together and discuss Saint Teresa’s understanding of prayer.
I would say that the fourth section of the catechism may not clear up some of the root causes in your miscommunication about heaven and how we worship God without some “remedial” steps toward meditation. Pray for the intercession of Padre Pio to magnify your prayer life, together and apart.
You do pray together with your friend? Hopefully you have opportunity to pray before the blessed Sacrament?

 

[RKS89]

I understand your friend’s advice but I’m on your side. The closest I’d get to recommending a “mantra” is saying the Jesus Prayer (in English). That’s my opinion of course, so take it as you will.

 

[Buck1900]

Honestly I can see it both ways, I agree that if you are just listening to chants and doing nothing else than it’s pretty pointless, but I listen to Latin chants while praying, sometimes I also pray formal prayers like the rosary but sometimes I simply sit still in God’s presence and reflect. Prayer doesn’t need words it can simply be contemplating Gods presence and knowledge and chants can help with that however, If you aren’t doing that it’s simply listening to music.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think people get overly hung up on which prayer forms they think are “correct”, especially when they start interpreting that Scripture passage to decide what constitutes “empty phrases”. Some people think that repeating the prayers of the Rosary is “empty phrases” because of all the repetition. Some people think that anything even faintly resembling Eastern religious chanting is dangerous and bad.

The Bible passage, as I understand it from having priests explain it to me, involved gentiles who believed that they had to repeat a prayer some magic, huge number of times to get the attention of their gods. They thought that in order to be “heard”, they had to keep repeating or yelling the prayer. Obviously that’s not the case as we can say a prayer once for 10 seconds and God will hear us. We use repetition in prayer for other purposes, such as focusing our minds in order to meditate on holy mysteries, or to repeatedly praise God. We are not repeating the Hail Mary 50 times in order to get God’s attention or “to be heard” by God.

The point of repeating the prayer in this context is not for the person to “heap up empty phrases” so they will be “heard for their many words”. The person is just trying to calm themselves for a meditation by using chant, which is generally acceptable. It’s therefore wrong to use that Bible verse as evidence that Our Lord said never to chant or repeat prayers.

The one concern I would have is using a chant where the person doesn’t understand the words. If you’re going to chant a prayer, at least know what you are saying. Read a translation and understand the meaning of the prayer; then if you want to chant it in Latin or some other language, that’s fine, you are aware of what you are saying. It’s wrong to just go chanting some prayer without having any idea what you’re saying - it’ s like you’re repeating gibberish then.

 

[Gorgias]

Greg’s response horrified me. The following was my response:

“Our Lord himself instructs us to never pray this way.

Matthew 6:7 ‘And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heart for their many words.”

This is of course not to say that standardized prayers are a bad thing (as Christ makes sure to show us by the introduction of the Our Father in Matthew 6:9-13), but that we must never be absent as to their meaning. We must, in our recitation of prayers, be mindful of their inflections, meanings, and purpose. Our prayers are an intimate communication with the Most High and must never be reduced to the status of mindless mantras.”

Two thoughts:

• First, what Jesus was talking about was the use of prayer as ‘magic’. The pagans attempted to invoke their gods by whatever name they could think up for them. The idea was that, if they happened upon the correct name, then their use of that name put the god under their control, so they could get him to do whatever they wanted (think ‘Rumpelstiltskin’ here). That’s not what your friend Greg is suggesting, so he’s ok on that account.
• Second, there isn’t a problem with mantras, per se. Where there is divergence in prayer is how they’re used. In Buddhism, a mantra is utilized to invoke a state of mindlessness and detachment from self. That would be a problem in a Christian context. If, on the other hand, a mantra (be it chant in Latin or Old Church Slavonic, or the prayers of the rosary) is used to get us to set aside the cares of the the world around us and instead, focus on God, then it’s a good thing.

So, it all comes down to how he uses it. If a mantra is familiar and useful for him – and if he uses it to connect with God, rather than to disconnect from himself – then it’s all good!

 

[BartholomewB]

The one concern I would have is using a chant where the person doesn’t understand the words. If you’re going to chant a prayer, at least know what you are saying. Read a translation and understand the meaning of the prayer; then if you want to chant it in Latin or some other language, that’s fine, you are aware of what you are saying. It’s wrong to just go chanting some prayer without having any idea what you’re saying - it’ s like you’re repeating gibberish then.

What @Tis_Bearself said. I don’t think there’s such a thing as praying in words you don’t understand. There is no non-verbal prayer, as far as I’m aware, except in St. Augustine’s metaphorical sense of Laborare est orare, to work is to pray. If you’re just mumbling meaningless words, you’re not praying.

 

[hmikell7]

This is pretty much my feelings exactly. There’s nothing wrong with repetitive prayers, but saying words you don’t know the meaning of seems to be the very definition of ‘empty words’.