Debate with a Muslim on Christ

[geometer]

It’s an islamic hadith‘ the muslim Isa (Jesus) is the destroyer of Christianity

Well, Jesus was quite a reformer. He will probably reform the hell out of Islam and everything else…

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

so you believe that Muslims refer to an imaginary Jesus ? do they also refer to an imaginary god ?

What Jakasaki means is that Muslims believe in a Jesus as told to them by Mohammad, rather than Jesus for who He really was as He spoke through the gospel writers. Hence her distinction between Jesus/Isa and Jesus Christ.

Furthermore, I think an important distinction needs to be made: when Christians say “God begot Jesus,” it does not mean that God gave birth to another god. Rather, within the Trinity, the Son proceeds from the Father, just as the Holy Spirit does (this is spoken of in the Nicene Creed). Christ is not the literal “son” of God, just as I am a son to my father.

This is why the apostle St. John the Theologian, the disciple whom Jesus loved, begins his gospel with, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Christ has always been begotten of the Father within the Trinity since the beginning of time.

 

[jakasaki]

Well, Jesus was quite a reformer. He will probably reform the hell out of Islam and everything else…

Yes indeed, but He is coming for theosophers first…

Now let me see, where is that written… hmmmmm!!!

TGIF!

 

[NDfan]

@ Poster:

Why don’t you approach your friend through their way of understanding.

For example:

Jesus/Isa is called Al-Masih in the koran.

That means Jesus the Messiah and He is mentioned over a dozen times with that title.

No one else is the koran has that title, therefore Jesus/Isa must be special/unique.

Ask your friend to explain the word “al-masih” to you and what it means to her/him.

This title is not applied to any messenger, prophets and not even to mohamad.

What does that tell you of Jesus?

Jakasaki good stuff. I agree the only way to have an intelligent conversation is to understand the Muslim mindset. I wish I knew the Koran better so I could refer to these passages. But thanks for the info

 

[jakasaki]

Jakasaki good stuff. I agree the only way to have an intelligent conversation is to understand the Muslim mindset. I wish I knew the Koran better so I could refer to these passages. But thanks for the info

You can also discuss with your friend this:

Jesus who is know as Isa/Essa to the muslims, was born of Virgin Birth.

No one else in the koran is born of a Virgin Birth, not even mohamad

It is stated in their koran.

Mother Mary is also stated in the koran as being a woman chosen by God.

Chapter 3 Aal-e-Imran The family of Imran

#42 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.

#43 “O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down.”

#44 This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger.) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).

#45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

Now NDfan, if you read this passage, it’s pretty powerful for your discussion.

Why is all of this glory and attention paid to Mother Mary if she wasn’t important.

She’s important because she will give a special birth to a very special person

**No other woman in the koran has recieved such attention as Mother Mary. **

**It also states that Jesus Christ, who is again known as Isa/Essa to the muslims, will be "held in honour in this world and the hereafter and of those nearest to allah. **

**Again, this high honor has not been given to anyone else in the koran. **

Look at chapter 4

#158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Why would allah only raise Christ up and no one else?

Again, this shows that Jesus was special & unique to allah.

A uniqueness that not even mohamad had.

**
Mohamad wasn’t raised by allah to be with him, he died and got buried.**

 

[NDfan]

Thanks for this quote. Is this in the Koran? If so, do you know the verse # in koran? I’d like to ask this of one of my office mates.

There’s definitely a quote in the Koran that Jakasaki is speaking to and as matter of fact my muslim friend cited this. She stated that Muslims believe Jesus will return to restore order in the world but not because he was the Son of GOD, but more because Jesus was chosen by GOD for this task.

So what doesn’t make sense is that Muslims believe Jesus existed and that HE held a special position for lack of a better word with GOD. They also just like most Christians hold Mary with a high regard that most certainly is due to her. It’s Jesus that will accomplish restoring order to the world and they await HIS return. Yet they stop just short of acknowledging the claims that Jesus himself made. So if you believe Jesus was a moral teacher and was chosen by GOD to return then you must also trust that what HE stated was true. If Jesus taught something that was not true then why would GOD choose a liar:shrug: Jesus claimed to be THE Son of GOD. If you reject that teaching then you must reject everything HE stated.

 

[jakasaki]

There’s definitely a quote in the Koran that Jakasaki is speaking to and as matter of fact my muslim friend cited this. She stated that Muslims believe Jesus will return to restore order in the world but not because he was the Son of GOD, but more because Jesus was chosen by GOD for this task.

~ snip ~…

NDfan, what I stated is a hadith. It is not in the koran.

Islam’s structure is this:

#1 is the koran, their holy book
#2 is the sunna, the ways of their prophet mohamad
#3 is the hadiths, the saying of their prophet mohamad (et al)

Edit to add that NOT all muslim believe in the hadiths.

 

[jakasaki]

It is believed by muslims that Christ/Isa/Essa will return to break the cross & etc as I stated earlier.

Pretty much to destroy Christianity.

But the question is why?

There is no mention of destroying Judaism, pagans, Hindus, Buddhists (et al)

It’s all nonsense and ancient myths.

 

[wwolverine]

There’s definitely a quote in the Koran that Jakasaki is speaking to and as matter of fact my muslim friend cited this. She stated that Muslims believe Jesus will return to restore order in the world but not because he was the Son of GOD, but more because Jesus was chosen by GOD for this task.

So what doesn’t make sense is that Muslims believe Jesus existed and that HE held a special position for lack of a better word with GOD. They also just like most Christians hold Mary with a high regard that most certainly is due to her. It’s Jesus that will accomplish restoring order to the world and they await HIS return. Yet they stop just short of acknowledging the claims that Jesus himself made. So if you believe Jesus was a moral teacher and was chosen by GOD to return then you must also trust that what HE stated was true. If Jesus taught something that was not true then why would GOD choose a liar:shrug: Jesus claimed to be THE Son of GOD. If you reject that teaching then you must reject everything HE stated.

Not only Jesus, but also Allah/God is a liar according to Muslims or quran, cause it clearly says that some look alike was crucified on the cross at the last moment. Either it was Judas or someone else, that part is still not sure.

According to Muslim belief, Jesus was not crucified. But they have no answers to all the queries regarding all the punishments Jesus went through prior to the crucifixion. worst being the crowning of thorns.

I feel sorry for their thinking as they are fooled by someone who wants to take people away from Jesus’s teachings. ie win souls for himself.

 

[jakasaki]

Not only Jesus, but also Allah/God is a liar according to Muslims or quran, cause it clearly says that some look alike was crucified on the cross at the last moment. Either it was Judas or someone else, that part is still not sure.

According to Muslim belief, Jesus was not crucified. But they have no answers to all the queries regarding all the punishments Jesus went through prior to the crucifixion. worst being the crowning of thorns.

I feel sorry for their thinking as they are fooled by someone who wants to take people away from Jesus’s teachings. ie win souls for himself.

This is **ONLY ** one place in the koran which speaks of it.

Just by reading this verse, without even looking up the tafsir you need to ask:

Who is they in the “they said (in boast)” line.

Who are those people?

If it is the Jews, technically the Jews DID NOT crucify Christ, they just handed Jesus over to the Romans and THEY DID the crucifixion since the Jews were living under Roman rule.

Chapter 4
157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

The rest of the passage makes no sence at all without reading the commentary notes on it.

It’s amazing that just one verse in the koran has created this whole issue regarding Jesus.

 

[jakasaki]

@ Ndfan:

I’m sorry but this whole thing was bugging me about the passage in the koran regarding Jesus/Isa’s return.

I’ve been searching and reading and I found it. Here it is from the koran.

Chapter #43 Az-Zukhruf Ornaments <—???

#61 **And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. **

#62 Let not the Evil One hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed.

#63 **When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me. **

#64 “For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way.”

Now, without those hadiths I posted earlier, you would never know about Jesus/Isa breaking the cross… etc…

 

[jakasaki]

For the above post, here is the link to the entire chapter #43

searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=43&translator=2

Read it if you wish and I hope that this chapter does not give you a headache because it sure made my head hurt just by reading it over and over. It’s confusing as heck!

 

[Bushmaster78FS]

In talking with a Muslim friend she informed me that the preacher at their Mosque gave a sermon last week on why Jesus was NOT the Son of GOD…

Ask your friend to inquire to her imam about who Jesus’ father was then… You will get the greatest runaround in the history of intellectual honesty… Oh I will tell you the answer, they will start talking about Adam who didn’t have a Father also. But sorry, that wasn’t the question…

 

[Booklover]

For the above post, here is the link to the entire chapter #43

searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=43&translator=2

Read it if you wish and I hope that this chapter does not give you a headache because it sure made my head hurt just by reading it over and over. It’s confusing as heck!

Everything about Islam is confusing! :hypno:

And right there is the statement stating the earth is flat!

10(Yea, the same that) has made for you the earth (like a carpet) spread out, and has made for you roads (and channels) therein, in order that ye may find guidance (on the way);

How can they still believe the Quran is from God!

Vickie

 

[jakasaki]

In talking with a Muslim friend she informed me that the preacher at their Mosque gave a sermon last week on why Jesus was NOT the Son of GOD. His justification went something like this. Christians claim Jesus was the Son of GOD because it was a miraculous birth. But alas Elizabeth was not able to have children yet her and Zechariah gave birth to John the Baptist. So John’s birth was just as much a miracle as Jesus birth. Then he went on to say that we’re all sons and daughters of GOD not just Jesus.

I tried explaining the obvious MAJOR difference that Mary was not unable to have children, she conceived as a virgin through the power of the Holy Spirit. The response was yes but it was still a miracle. Yes it was a miracle just like all creation is a miracle. But this particular birth was not from a man and woman. The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. Again it was yes but it was still a miracle no different than John the Baptist. I tried my best to explain that it wasn’t so much the miracle aspect of Jesus birth, more that it was through the power of the Holy Spirit. It was a miracle yes but the fact that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary meant that Jesus was now the true Son of GOD. Eventually I felt like I was talking to a brick wall because the canned response was we’re all sons and daughters of GOD and many births are miracles. :banghead:

It just further confirmed for me how much misunderstanding there is of who Jesus was and is.

PEACE

NDfan,

I hope you return to this thread and tell us how it went with your conversations regarding this issue.

 

[Booklover]

For the above post, here is the link to the entire chapter #43

searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=43&translator=2

Read it if you wish and I hope that this chapter does not give you a headache because it sure made my head hurt just by reading it over and over. It’s confusing as heck!

Hey Pam!

It does give you a headache. I tried reading more of it and there’s no coherence anywhere. It’s just a lot of statements thrown in together that don’t even seem to follow each other. And Muslims claim the Quran is simple and clear?

Vickie

 

[jakasaki]

Hey Pam!

It does give you a headache. I tried reading more of it and there’s no coherence anywhere. It’s just a lot of statements thrown in together that don’t even seem to follow each other. And Muslims claim the Quran is simple and clear?

Vickie

I agree Vickie ~

I could have something to do with the way the koran was compiled because it is not written in the order mohamad claimed to have received it.

That is why the Medina verses and Mecca verses are all jumbled up.

I bet if this book was reorganized in the manner it should be, perhaps, just perhaps it might make sense.

By making sense I mean it would be “readable” but I will not agree that it is God’s word.

 

[Booklover]

I agree Vickie ~

I could have something to do with the way the koran was compiled because it is not written in the order mohamad claimed to have received it.

That is why the Medina verses and Mecca verses are all jumbled up.

I bet if this book was reorganized in the manner it should be, perhaps, just perhaps it might make sense.

By making sense I mean it would be “readable” but I will not agree that it is God’s word.

Have you any idea why it was not compiled as dictated by Muhammad? It doesn’t make sense for Muslims to claim the Quran is the word of Allah and then put it together as if it had no importance whatsoever.

Vickie

 

[jakasaki]

Have you any idea why it was not compiled as dictated by Muhammad? It doesn’t make sense for Muslims to claim the Quran is the word of Allah and then put it together as if it had no importance whatsoever.

Vickie

I feel right now that we are taking this thread to another level.

Perhaps a new thread should be started to discuss this, but I’m sure that we’ve covered in so many previous threads.

I believe we are beating a dead horse…!!

Perhaps Islam round 5 should be resurrected!!!

 

[Booklover]

I feel right now that we are taking this thread to another level.

Perhaps a new thread should be started to discuss this, but I’m sure that we’ve covered in so many previous threads.

I believe we are beating a dead horse…!!

Perhaps Islam round 5 should be resurrected!!!

I think we should do that! It will probably end in the usual circular reasoning!

Vickie