Debate with a Protestant

[PluniaZ]

The Bible doesn’t command us to only follow what is written in the Bible. The Bible commands us to obey the apostles and their successors:

Luke 10:16: “He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.”

John 13:20: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.”

John 20:21: “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”

2 Thessalonians 2:15: “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.”

Ephesians 2:20: “Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”

Titus 2:15: “These things speak, and exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”

You can try to spin it however you want, but the Bible plainly puts the apostles and their successors in command over the entire Church. Jesus did not leave a book behind when He ascended into Heaven. He left behind the Apostles. It’s time to obey their successors.

 

[steve_b]

He does not believe in praying to saints because the KJV does not have Tobit which states that Raphael took Tobit’s prayers up to God and supplemented for him (Tobit). KJV has 66 books. The balance 7 which the Catholic Bible has were in the KJV when it was first published in 1611. However, around 1800 they mysteriously disappeared from the KJV, There are all kinds of excuses why they disappeared including that the printer thought it would be cheaper to print if the 7 books were omitted. There are even versions of KJV that have the 7 books in the index but not in the body of the Bible.

That said,

why not use this from CA
catholic.com/tract/praying-to-the-saints

 

[steve_b]

I am preparing to debate a very anti-Catholic Protestant online. He is a KJV only Fundamentalist. He is completley convinced on Sola Scriptura as well. Can anyone give me good resources and maybe help debating him when the time comes? It’s going to be very lengthy. Please pray for me as well.

try this from CA if the issue of praying to saints comes up
catholic.com/tract/praying-to-the-saints

 

[Faith1960]

Just don’t.

Online is not the place to try to engage. Especially not a KJV only person. They lack logic and if you corner them on a topic they will change the subject.

I was just going to tell the OP “good luck.”

 

[Nelka]

He does not believe in praying to saints because the KJV does not have Tobit which states that Raphael took Tobit’s prayers up to God and supplemented for him (Tobit). KJV has 66 books. The balance 7 which the Catholic Bible has were in the KJV when it was first published in 1611. However, around 1800 they mysteriously disappeared from the KJV, There are all kinds of excuses why they disappeared including that the printer thought it would be cheaper to print if the 7 books were omitted. There are even versions of KJV that have the 7 books in the index but not in the body of the Bible.

In Revelation it states the prayers of the saints are brought to the throne of God in bowls of incense.

 

[McCartney]

In Revelation it states the prayers of the saints are brought to the throne of God in bowls of incense.

Thank you for that Re 8:5. I will remember that when arguing with Protestants.

 

[thephilosopher6]

I think he may have backed out of the debate but I’m not 100% sure right now.

 

[KiwiBliss]

I think he may have backed out of the debate but I’m not 100% sure right now.

Well, if he did back out, at least you’ve got advice just in case for the next person that comes your way. God won’t give you more than you can handle, so there’s nothing to worry about whether it happens or not. If he fires back at you on that debate, “kill 'em with kindness” (as my Mom always tells me)- which means to be friendly even when they don’t deserve it but firm enough to have a backbone against wrongdoing. Pray and trust in God’s providence to assist you in all you say and do- He won’t let you down.

 

[thephilosopher6]

I found him on another post debating over creation and evolution that I responded to, and he was very very anti-Catholic. The thread got closed though so I couldn’t respond, I tried PMing him but I think he may have blocked me? Anyways, here is my response if I could have responded.

…

Now, you say that Catholics reject the sufficiency of scripture, but this isn’t entirely true. Catholics accept the material sufficiency of scripture because we affirm that the Bible contains all that is needed for salvation, which is of course, accepting Jesus and follow him wherever he leads. This does not mean the Bible has all we need to interpret it though, quite the contrary actually. If the Bible had everything we needed to correctly interpret it, then something like the Council of Nicaea would have never occurred, and we might as well throw out every commentary on the Bible as well as the writings of the Church fathers. Nobody can interpret scripture alone all by themselves, and I think it’s clear to see what happens when somebody does. Even you, as a Protestant, could not believe that because you interpret the Bible according to your Christian tradition, whereas a Lutheran would interpret it according to theirs, and an Anglican would interpret it according to theirs, and of course all Protestant groups would claim they are only going by “Sola Scriptura” despite sometimes massive differences in interpretation from one sect to another.

I’m sorry to say my friend but, the Bible didn’t just drop from the sky as you would have liked it to. It was written over the course of centuries and each of the authors may have had different goals in mind. No doubt, all of it is true, and all of the authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit, even if they weren’t aware of it. Ultimately, an official Bible canon didn’t come into view until the late 4th century, around 300 years after the New Testament had been completed, under the Fourth Council of Carthage (397 A.D) (note: the deuterocanonical books of the Catholic and Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Old Testament are includes as canon by the Council), and guess who it was who compiled the Bible canon? specifically the New Testament canon that all Christians (except for Ethiopian Orthodox) share in common today. It was the Catholic Church. Catholics were ultimately the ones who wrote the New Testament and the Catholic Church compiled the entire Christian Bible together. You are reading a Catholic book my friend.

Now, as for you assertions in your second post that my claims have no evidence, I actually find that kind of ironic considering the position on creation I assume you hold to, you know, with the lack of evidence for a literal creation as the way you see it and there actually being evidence for evolution. Anyways, I do have “evidence”, some literature for you and also a short YouTube video.

I recommend reading the book, “The Meaning of Creation: Genesis and Modern Science”, by Merritt Conard Hyers, a Presbyterian Theologian and Philosopher. The book discusses a lot of what I mentioned and is a wonderful read. It primarily takes the general modern scholarly position on the interpretation of Genesis.

Also, here is a video on the subject which includes a few respected Theologians, including former Anglican Bishop and Theologian N.T Wright:

youtube.com/watch?v=5bKa92eLkQM

It’s safe to say that interpreting Genesis literally is more of a modern phenomenon arising out of the Evangelical Christian tradition of interpreting scripture.

 

[brian_custer]

debates w/ protestants?

while we all appreciate your efforts;

the secular humanists are the real challenge to faithfulness

the whole “protestant” community is collapsing in on itself… protestants are just too fractured

 

[KiwiBliss]

I found him on another post debating over creation and evolution that I responded to, and he was very very anti-Catholic. The thread got closed though so I couldn’t respond, I tried PMing him but I think he may have blocked me? Anyways, here is my response if I could have responded.

Overall it’s a good & possible response. Keep in mind though to include references of info that you found to defend your reasoning… otherwise, he would likely ask where you got that info- have it as a backup to support your answer- the more prepared you are, the less questions he likely will ask, & the more understanding happens. When mentioning about all within the Bible being true, it might be valuable for a Protestant to be reminded that not everything in the Bible is to be interpreted literally, such as those parable stories- therefore the need for someone learning the real way to interpreting the Bible is vital. I sensed in your response a bit of either intimidation, aggravation, or feeling threatened by this particular Protestant- despite how he/anyone may treat you, don’t let it bother you, especially in an online interaction where they may interpret your response negatively or use your irritation as a means to get you more irritated. Perhaps try a neutral tone of writing (typing) a future response thru a “3rd person” (my previous professor) perspective with less “you” assumptions that could become a bit threatening to him/another person. Aside from that, it’s overall a genius response to defending the faith- keep up the effort!

 

[adamhovey1988]

debates w/ protestants?

while we all appreciate your efforts;

the secular humanists are the real challenge to faithfulness

the whole “protestant” community is collapsing in on itself… protestants are just too fractured

I really hate to agree. But I live in the American south, so debates with Protestants are a more looming threat for me.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I am preparing to debate a very anti-Catholic Protestant online. He is a KJV only Fundamentalist. He is completley convinced on Sola Scriptura as well. Can anyone give me good resources and maybe help debating him when the time comes? It’s going to be very lengthy. Please pray for me as well.

Know your Bible!

 

[fabio_rocha]

Ask your protestant friend to read 1 Cor.11:29 and then tell them St.Paul basically tells us there are 2 ways of receiving Communion: in a worthy manner and in an unworthy manner. Ask him to find in the Bible (since he’s adherent to Sola Scriptura) to find the total and explicit conditions that makes one worthy/unworthy of receiving the Eucharist. There are no such verses.

 

[JonNC]

If you want to really pull the rug from under him, focus your energy on the Liturgy.

This link shows that Sola Scriptura cannot answer the question of Liturgy, and thus by definition what Protestants do on Sunday for their “worship” is NOT from Scripture, and thus a Tradition of Men and never commanded by God. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Sunday Worship is centered upon a man standing up and giving a glorified Bible study, a lecture on a passage of his own choosing. That’s not even technically worship, but rather catechesis, and distinct from worship proper.

catholicnick.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-ultimate-and-most-effective.html

I suspect this argument won’t work because this type of "Protestant " doesn’t use a liturgy. In fact he’d probably agree with you and condemn you for using a liturgy as vain repetitions.

Sola scripturists that do use a liturgy would scoff at the notion that SS means what you (and he) say it means.