Debating a calvinist

[Kaily]

Here is what she says:

“you are speaking from a Catholic perspective & probably believe then that if David missed repenting of a specific sin & then died before getting to repent that he would be forever lost in hell but that is not what Scripture says of the believer. I didn’t know if you knew this or not but concerning repentance…the Greek word is metanoeite which means to turn away or literally to change one’s mind however when this was being translated into the Latin Vulgate it was translated as ‘Paenitentiam Agite’ which literally means ‘do penance.’ These are two totally different ideas. The Roman Catholic sacrament of penance all grew out of a corrupt translation of the Greek. And if you look at the system with contrition/attrition, confession, satisfaction, absolution…in satisfaction you are literally saying you have made satisfaction for your own sins and that’s an explicit denial of Christianity & absolution is just the recognition that you’ve paid it off & saved urself”

Do you know the history of the greek and the translatios etc…How would you respond to this person?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Here is what she says:

“you are speaking from a Catholic perspective & probably believe then that if David missed repenting of a specific sin & then died before getting to repent that he would be forever lost in hell but that is not what Scripture says of the believer. I didn’t know if you knew this or not but concerning repentance…the Greek word is metanoeite which means to turn away or literally to change one’s mind however when this was being translated into the Latin Vulgate it was translated as ‘Paenitentiam Agite’ which literally means ‘do penance.’ These are two totally different ideas. The Roman Catholic sacrament of penance all grew out of a corrupt translation of the Greek. And if you look at the system with contrition/attrition, confession, satisfaction, absolution…in satisfaction you are literally saying you have made satisfaction for your own sins and that’s an explicit denial of Christianity & absolution is just the recognition that you’ve paid it off & saved urself”

Do you know the history of the greek and the translatios etc…How would you respond to this person?

Don’t know the Greek, but what I do know is that all of the following Fathers wrote prior to Jerome’s “corruption” of the text:

Ignatius of Antioch

“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” (ibid., 8).

Irenaeus

“[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses” (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

“[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness” (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).

Hippolytus

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Origen

“[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity”’” (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Cyprian of Carthage

“The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: ‘ . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him” (The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251]).

“Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord” (ibid., 28).

“inners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [But now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]” (Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253]).

“And do not think, dearest brother, that either the courage of the brethren will be lessened, or that martyrdoms will fail for this cause, that penance is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of peace * is offered to the penitent. . . . For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given” (ibid., 51[55]:20).

“But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver from death’ [Tob. 12:9]” (ibid., 51[55]:22).

Aphraahat the Persian Sage

“You [priests], then, who are disciples of our illustrious physician [Christ], you ought not deny a curative to those in need of healing. And if anyone uncovers his wound before you, give him the remedy of repentance. And he that is ashamed to make known his weakness, encourage him so that he will not hide it from you. And when he has revealed it to you, do not make it public, lest because of it the innocent might be reckoned as guilty by our enemies and by those who hate us” (Treatises 7:3 [A.D. 340]).

Basil the Great

“It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles” (Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374]).

John Chrysostom

“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven” (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).

Ambrose of Milan

“For those to whom [the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only” (Penance 1:1 [A.D. 388]).*

 

[Todd_Easton]

Here is what she says:

"you are speaking from a Catholic perspective & probably believe then that if David missed repenting of a specific sin & then died before getting to repent that he would be forever lost in hell but that is not what Scripture says of the believer. I didn’t know if you knew this or not but concerning repentance…

If David committed adultery and murder but later only repented of the adultery, he would be forever lost in hell because of the unrepented murder.

the Greek word is metanoeite which means to turn away or literally to change one’s mind however when this was being translated into the Latin Vulgate it was translated as ‘Paenitentiam Agite’ which literally means ‘do penance.’ These are two totally different ideas.

Though paenitentiam agite may literally mean ‘do penance,’ Catholics have always understood it to comprehend not only self-denials and some severities of a penitential life but also a change of mind, a new life, and a sorrow for past offenses.

The Roman Catholic sacrament of penance all grew out of a corrupt translation of the Greek. And if you look at the system with contrition/attrition, confession, satisfaction, absolution…in satisfaction you are literally saying you have made satisfaction for your own sins and that’s an explicit denial of Christianity & absolution is just the recognition that you’ve paid it off & saved urself"

The order of the sacrament of penance as it is practiced today is contrition/attrition, confession, absolution, and then satisfaction. Having absolution (the forgiveness of sins) occur before any satisfaction is performed by the penitent is a recognition that the forgiveness of sins is gratuitous, based solely on the satisfaction made by Christ, not by anything we do ourselves. We do not save ourselves; Christ saves us. The aim of the satisfaction the penitent performs is not to pay off (the eternal debt of) our sins and save ourselves but to ameliorate the temporal consequences of our sins, i.e., to help those we have injured by our sins and to help us grow in holiness.

 

[JimTheTim]

Is this Calvinist sure that David wasn’t repentent?

 

[DD2007]

Here is what she says:

“you are speaking from a Catholic perspective & probably believe then that if David missed repenting of a specific sin & then died before getting to repent that he would be forever lost in hell but that is not what Scripture says of the believer. I didn’t know if you knew this or not but concerning repentance…the Greek word is metanoeite which means to turn away or literally to change one’s mind however when this was being translated into the Latin Vulgate it was translated as ‘Paenitentiam Agite’ which literally means ‘do penance.’ These are two totally different ideas. The Roman Catholic sacrament of penance all grew out of a corrupt translation of the Greek. And if you look at the system with contrition/attrition, confession, satisfaction, absolution…in satisfaction you are literally saying you have made satisfaction for your own sins and that’s an explicit denial of Christianity & absolution is just the recognition that you’ve paid it off & saved urself”

Do you know the history of the greek and the translatios etc…How would you respond to this person?

How did something like this come up? I’m a Calvinist and I can see no reason why I would spend any time on this type of thing. I would suggest changing the subject to something interesting.