Debating a Muslim

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Regarding the Trinity, I’d like you to try my example, to see how it works.

That is Siamese Twins. Two persons in one body. I suppose there could even be Siamese Triplets.

My thinking is that the tragedy of Siamese Twins has a silver lining, in pointing to an example of how the Trinity could be possible.

Siamese Twins = two persons in one body.

Trinity = three persons in one Godhead.

Now, why is that hard to conceive? I know that Siamese Twins are not a perfect example to explain the Trinity; just an example.

I have yet an opportunity to try this example which I think better than the three-leaf clover; water-gas-ice, etc.
Because the Muslim will most likely respond with, “So you serve a three-headed god?” This has been stated plenty by Muslims I’ve come in contact with. I would advise you to watch a debate regarding the Trinity that states BOTH sides (Christian and Muslim). You can strengthen your faith, learn and use examples from that.
 
Catholics are not supposed to proselytize. We are supposed to evangelize. Pope Francis has spoken out about this. To evangelize is to invite.

Trying to convert someone on the other hand, disrespects their freedom. The entire friendship becomes clouded by the agenda to convert. I don’t trust anyone who conversion of my faith as their goal. They are not really my friend because they don’t respect my freedom to believe what I have chosen to believe.

-Tim-
Tim,

Respectfully, What do you believe Peter meant when he wrote in 1 Peter 3:

“but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.…”

If this Muslim is inquiring or heaven forbid tearing down the Triune God, should not the OP be able to defend his faith? One needs to be ready for things such as this. It will become rampant in preparation for the coming of the Day of the Lord. There is nothing unbiblical or sinful about proselytizing when done with a loving heart and good intentions. Inviting is loving and proselytizing in love is a Biblical practice. They still have plenty of freedom to say, “no thankyou”. They also have plenty of freedom to defend their own faith.
 
Tim,

Respectfully, What do you believe Peter meant when he wrote in 1 Peter 3:

“but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.…”

If this Muslim is inquiring or heaven forbid tearing down the Triune God, should not the OP be able to defend his faith? One needs to be ready for things such as this. It will become rampant in preparation for the coming of the Day of the Lord. There is nothing unbiblical or sinful about proselytizing when done with a loving heart and good intentions. Inviting is loving and proselytizing in love is a Biblical practice. They still have plenty of freedom to say, “no thankyou”. They also have plenty of freedom to defend their own faith.
Defending your faith when someone calls you to account for the reason why you have hope is fine but your argument in favor of proselytizing is not with me but with Pope Francis and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. An agenda to convert is not a Christian ideal. Those are the Pope’s words, not mine.

God respects our free will. Christ offered people the truth and showed signs that what he said was the truth but he let people walk away. Christ always respected people’s freedom. We have to always imitate Christ and respect people’s freedom, offering them the truth and letting them make the decision. To do that is to imitate Christ.

The goal is to proclaim the Gospel, and to give evidence of how your life has changed because of it. That’s called Christian Witness.

**

  1. *]What my life was like before I knew Jesus.
    *]How I met Jesus
    *]What my life is like now that I know Jesus.

    **
    That is Christian Witness and that is what we are supposed to do. Paul does it three times in Acts of the Apostles. Defending the faith when challenged is fine but the truth is that if you can’t explain how your life has changed because of Jesus then your life needs to change.

    -Tim-
 
Sorry, that’s actually a heresy called modalism. The Church has condemned this interpretation.

But the Church has never offered an actual interpretation either. Probably because it is a mystery that we are not capable of understanding. It has been said, in a semi-joking manner, that nobody since St. Thomas Aquinas has taught about the Trinity without making a heretic of himself - and we’re not sure about Aquinas.

An idea has been put forth to explain why God MUST be at least two divine beings. It is based on the idea that “God is love.” If God is love, and God is eternal, what did God love before Creation? What will God love after the universe goes cold? If God loved only himself, it would be selfish love. Unselfish, committed love requires another entity. Thus, the Father and the Son, who perfectly love each other.

TO THE OP: Don’t worry about the Holy Spirit at this point. You don’t need to demonstrate the logic of trinity, but only of duality. Duality is demonstrated much more easily than trinity, and it is enough to call a unitarian belief into question.
Wow! Thanks for the insight, I had no idea of that. 👍
 
I have yet to research documents about this, and I submit to the popes teaching, however the definitions of these words seem to be basically the same(New Oxford American Dictionary).
 
Because the Muslim will most likely respond with, “So you serve a three-headed god?” This has been stated plenty by Muslims I’ve come in contact with.
If that’s their simplistic, knee-jerk response, then okay. Would then have to emphasise that it’s the two persons in one body that alludes to the concept of the Trinity being several persons in one godhead. Nature has a very good example alluding to the Trinity, how it is possible.

Perhaps studying Islam more (I had a smidgen in Religious Studies at my University back in the day) would be in order. My main recollection I formed back then was that Islam didn’t really know who God is; or how to be “saved” (other than martyrdom).

All Islam is is a Judeao-Christian heresy.
 
So, my best friend is Muslim and wants to convert me, but I’ve been having trouble explaining to Him the need for the Incarnation and Death and Resurrection of Jesus. I also have trouble explaining the Saints to him.

I hate arguing by nature. I hate doing this because I am often in doubt…
I think it’s beautiful that a Muslim and a Christian are best friends. 🙂

The world needs so much more of that!
 
Okay, he wants me to list all the qualities of a false prophet in the Old Testament and he’ll test it right in front of me.
 
So, my best friend is Muslim and wants to convert me, but I’ve been having trouble explaining to Him the need for the Incarnation and Death and Resurrection of Jesus. I also have trouble explaining the Saints to him.

I hate arguing by nature. I hate doing this because I am often in doubt.

There is also his questions on the nature of the Trinity. He does not understand how God could be One God, but Three Persons.
Why debate him…???

Just tell him that you are a Catholic and your faith sits well in your mind and in your heart.

And then quote him the following from his Quran:

Quran 109:1-6

Say: O disbelievers!
I worship not that which ye worship;
Nor worship ye that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. <-------------
 
Why are you bothering with this? Is there are any one piece of information you think you can state that will satisfy your friend? He is playing games with you, trying to trip you up so that he can press you more to convert to Islam when you are feeling unsure in your faith or your ability to defend it. Don’t humor him by going about his little challenges. The only things you need to know as a Christian about Islam were already stated by John of Damascus in his Heresies in Epitome, which was written as he encountered the early Muslims (he was born within 50 years of the death of Muhammad, and hence encountered the early Muslims and answered their ridiculous objections, which are still repeated by people like your Muslim friend as though we haven’t been answering them for 1400 years and counting…sigh). You may read the full text of the portion on Islam here, though for the benefit of those who don’t want to put in the time, I would like to highlight the following in relation to what your friend has brought up:
Moreover, they call us Hetaeriasts, or Associators, because, they say, we introduce an associate with God by declaring Christ to the Son of God and God. We say to them in rejoinder: ‘The Prophets and the Scriptures have delivered this to us, and you, as you persistently maintain, accept the Prophets. So, if we wrongly declare Christ to be the Son of God, it is they who taught this and handed it on to us.’ But some of them say that it is by misinterpretation that we have represented the Prophets as saying such things, while others say that the Hebrews hated us and deceived us by writing in the name of the Prophets so that we might be lost. And again we say to them: ‘As long as you say that Christ is the Word of God and Spirit, why do you accuse us of being Hetaeriasts? For the word, and the spirit, is inseparable from that in which it naturally has existence. Therefore, if the Word of God is in God, then it is obvious that He is God. If, however, He is outside of God, then, according to you, God is without word and without spirit. Consequently, by avoiding the introduction of an associate with God you have mutilated Him. It would be far better for you to say that He has an associate than to mutilate Him, as if you were dealing with a stone or a piece of wood or some other inanimate object. Thus, you speak untruly when you call us Hetaeriasts; we retort by calling you Mutilators of God.’
Your friend, being an observant Muslim, should know that the Qur’an does indeed call its Jesus figure, 'Isa, the word of God (in Arabic, kalimatullah). So it remains for Muslims to say that this really means this or that or the other thing…anything but what we Christians have received since centuries before Muhammad was even born! And they want to put us on the spot? Hahahaha. Really, don’t bother. Islam can’t defend itself, and until it can (which it never will, because it is false), you needn’t concern yourself with your friend’s 1400-year-old moldy accusations and ridiculousness.
 
What do I do? He says I should be able to explain the basics of my faith. I have OCD and panic attacks. I settled down a few weeks ago when I discovered the child marriage thing but now I’m not so sure.
Can you please address the bold & underlined part as to what you mean by this statement…

Thanks…
 
Okay, he wants me to list all the qualities of a false prophet in the Old Testament and he’ll test it right in front of me.
Can you also please explain this statement.

I don’t quite understand any of it…

Thanks again!
 
Why are you bothering with this? Is there are any one piece of information you think you can state that will satisfy your friend? He is playing games with you, trying to trip you up so that he can press you more to convert to Islam when you are feeling unsure in your faith or your ability to defend it. Don’t humor him by going about his little challenges. The only things you need to know as a Christian about Islam were already stated by John of Damascus in his Heresies in Epitome, which was written as he encountered the early Muslims (he was born within 50 years of the death of Muhammad, and hence encountered the early Muslims and answered their ridiculous objections, which are still repeated by people like your Muslim friend as though we haven’t been answering them for 1400 years and counting…sigh). You may read the full text of the portion on Islam here, though for the benefit of those who don’t want to put in the time, I would like to highlight the following in relation to what your friend has brought up:

Your friend, being an observant Muslim, should know that the Qur’an does indeed call its Jesus figure, 'Isa, the word of God (in Arabic, kalimatullah). So it remains for Muslims to say that this really means this or that or the other thing…anything but what we Christians have received since centuries before Muhammad was even born! And they want to put us on the spot? Hahahaha. Really, don’t bother. Islam can’t defend itself, and until it can (which it never will, because it is false), you needn’t concern yourself with your friend’s 1400-year-old moldy accusations and ridiculousness.
Well said Jeremy… !!! 👍
 
Can you please address the bold & underlined part as to what you mean by this statement…

Thanks…
Well, I found this: answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/marriage_age.html

And, at the end, they show Bukhari’s Hadith supporting it. And Bukhari is the best and most reliable Hadith collector according to him.

I once asked about Aisha before I found this, but he said she was ready having reached puberty at 9. Bukhari uses her as an example of a prepubescent bride.

So, I settled down when I remembered “By their fruits you will know them.”

But, I visited their mosque when I visited him Saturday and I started having doubts again.
 
Tell him you are called to edify your fellow man to God. Also tell him as a Christian we are to keep God foremost in mind with anything we do that we eventually attune our will to the Will of God. Tell him praying for one another is Holier than debating.

MJ
 
Okay, he wants me to list all the qualities of a false prophet in the Old Testament and he’ll test it right in front of me.
Deut. 18: 20 “But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or6 who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.”

Deut. 13: “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and uhold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst."

Here are *some *verses from the Old Testament (there are plenty more) regarding false prophets and what the Lord God says concerning them. Most likely your friend is trying to trap you into an argument regarding Christ Jesus (which he cant) and Muhammad. The Word of God always stands. Always. You are very uncertain about how to answer his questions and if this friend is a close friend he probably has an idea that you are uncertain. Been there. You need to take some time to grow in God’s Word first. Tell him you will just have to get back to him. That you do not want to phrase things incorrectly. That you need to represent your faith in the Trinity well and that you want to please God in doing so. And then buckle down and study. Watch a debate. Read the Word of God. PRAY! It is the only way you will be prepared in the future. This is just my advice. Maybe another has different advice, but it seems the most logical. God bless you in your future studies 👍

(The Savior, Christ Jesus has fulfilled, I believe, well over 300 Old Testament prophecies. You can show your friend all of them! Blessings)
 
Defending your faith when someone calls you to account for the reason why you have hope is fine but your argument in favor of proselytizing is not with me but with Pope Francis and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. An agenda to convert is not a Christian ideal. Those are the Pope’s words, not mine.

God respects our free will. Christ offered people the truth and showed signs that what he said was the truth but he let people walk away. Christ always respected people’s freedom. We have to always imitate Christ and respect people’s freedom, offering them the truth and letting them make the decision. To do that is to imitate Christ.

The goal is to proclaim the Gospel, and to give evidence of how your life has changed because of it. That’s called Christian Witness.

**

  1. *]What my life was like before I knew Jesus.
    *]How I met Jesus
    *]What my life is like now that I know Jesus.

    **
    That is Christian Witness and that is what we are supposed to do. Paul does it three times in Acts of the Apostles. Defending the faith when challenged is fine but the truth is that if you can’t explain how your life has changed because of Jesus then your life needs to change.

    -Tim-

  1. Tim, I am aware of the Pope’s statements. I also whole-heartedly agree with what is said about what a Christian Witness is to convey (3 steps). But, do you not think the steps above are proselytizing/evangelizing? Do you not think the apostles tried to convince those they came across that the Saviour whom they loved WAS the Messiah? They Evangelized. Sooner than later whomever you or I am witnessing to will ask why Jesus Christ is such a big deal to a Christian and salvation in general. It is in His name. Saviour Anointed. He, the King of Kings, saved those who believe in Him and those who deny Him as Saviour, cannot be saved. **1, 2, 3 John **are wonderful passages for all to hide in their hearts/minds and bring out when doubts and questions arise. To love and care for someone enough to speak the truth is not stomping on his or her right to believe in whatever/whomever. The person CAN walk away. The seed was planted. This is the most important subject one can ever convey to another and yes, ultimately it is up to God whether or not the plant grows. This does not suggest one be pushy and over-bearing! That is the opposite of respectful. As long as you and I are spreading the Gospel in love, you are respectfully doing as Christ’s asked. You are causing the person to really think- This is literally a Life and Death matter. I long to be used as God’s instrument convincing others of the Good News! Not in an over-bearing way, but in a way that conveys the seriousness and urgency of the matter.
 
What do I do? He says I should be able to explain the basics of my faith. I have OCD and panic attacks. I settled down a few weeks ago when I discovered the child marriage thing but now I’m not so sure.
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living[16] and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

 
From Liturgy of Pentecost of the Syriac Churches - Catholic and Orthodox - of which Islam was a heresy that sprang up in the 600s:

Glory be to Him who is invisible, mysterious and beyond human thoughts, mind and comprehension. He, who is self existent, self sufficient, maker and author of all things visible and invisible and has no beginning and will continue without end; the eternal, everlasting and the incomprehensible one true God, one nature, one authority and one will of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. There is not in Him a name without a person and no person is younger or older than the other person, neither is there any transformation or alteration of one person is another in greatness and smallness.

No name or person is younger or separated from the divine substance. Whenever the Father is mentioned, the Son and the Spirit are of Him, and whenever the Son is mentioned, the Father and the Spirit are acknowledged in Him, and whenever the Spirit is mentioned the Father and the Son are included.

The Father begets and is not begotten. The Son is begotten and does not beget. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and takes from the Son and is consubstantial and co-essential with the Father. To Him be glory, honor and dominion at this time of the celebration of Pentecost and at all festivals, times, hours, seasons and through all the days of our life forever.

Amen.

O God, invisible, inscrutable, eternal and immeasurable, You are conceivable in the oneness of essence and are apparent in three Holy persons, who are understood in three characteristic attributes by all rational beings and are acknowledged one God in three worshipped persons; a perfect Trinity of three perfect persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit; one sublime essence, one eternal nature, one true God.

O God the Father, You were pleased to restore man who was created in Your own image, and who by his free will slid into idolatry; You sent Your Word and Your Son for our reformation.

When He became man without any alteration, He explained to us the ineffability of the Godhead, and announced to us the unknown things and the hidden secrets of Your wisdom in that he knows You and in that he is of You.

He informed us about the third light of the Godhead who is the person of the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from You, O Father, in an indescribable manner. The Spirit of truth, the Spirit of wisdom, the Spirit of might, the Spirit of knowledge, the perfecter Spirit, the performer Spirit, the non-quantiative Spirit, the affectionate Spirit, the Spirit that guides the teachers; the beneficent Spirit, the powerful Spirit, the almighty Spirit, the Spirit that is simple in His nature and manifold in His operation, who is the source of divine gifts and is consubstantial with You and with Your only begotten Son, the Spirit who spoke in the
law through the prophets and the disciples, who is near to all and fills all, who effects sanctification with authority, and not entreatingly, upon those with whom He is pleased.

Through Him we beseech You on this glorious feast of Pentecost, on which the Holy Spirit descended upon the holy apostles, that He may also descend upon us, Your servants
and worshippers, so You may fill us with his holy gifts; uproot from us all the defilement of sin, raise us up as pure temples and presentable habitations for Your dwelling and make us not submissive to the turbulence of the enemies and bring a good remembrance and a joyful repose to all the faithful departed, the children of the Holy Church, especially our parents, teachers and brethren, who lived their life in the true faith.

For You reign over us, O God, the Father and Lord of all, with Your only begotten Son, who quickens all, and Your Holy Spirit the most blessed, worshipped, life-giving and consubstantial with You, now and forever.
 
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