Debating a Muslim

[Gabriel_of_12]

So, my best friend is Muslim and wants to convert me, but I’ve been having trouble explaining to Him the need for the Incarnation and Death and Resurrection of Jesus. I also have trouble explaining the Saints to him.

I hate arguing by nature. I hate doing this because I am often in doubt.

There is also his questions on the nature of the Trinity. He does not understand how God could be One God, but Three Persons.

Faith appears to be the obstacle in such a subject to entertain here.

The Muslim deals with faith from a carnal limited understanding of God from what is seen and tangible from a natural mindset.

The Christian faith begins with reason and the intellect which graduates to the supernatural in the things of the True revelations of God of the eternal Holy Spirit which has no beginnings and no end.

The Muslim rejects the Holy Spirit who teaches and reveals the revelations of God to our humanity. Thus the Muslim’s faith is grounded to the carnal understanding of the natural order of things, which grounds the faith of Islam to reject the supernatural revelations of God, such as God sending His Son to redeem our humanity.

Islam is still an infant compared to Catholicism. The faith of the Muslim has not graduated to the Spiritual realities of God, because Islam reject’s the divine the Son who reveals the Father and Islam rejects the Holy Spirit who teaches our humanity and reveals what the divine Son has revealed of God to humanity.

There was a time when Islam had great theologians and great philosophical thinkers who attempted to graduate Islam into the revelations of God, but the Muslim leaders rejected their own theological interpretations to the spiritual realities and killed them all off.

Although Islam teaches that God is One and reject what God has revealed through the Son in the Holy Spirit.

A natural attempt to grasp at a revelation of the blessed Trinity for a carnal natural faith such as a Muslim can begin how God has revealed Himself in time and to our humanity.

The Scriptures reveal the Voice of God in the Father, the Word of God who is sent in the Son and the Spirit of God who reveals.

The voice (Father), the Word (Son) and the Spirit (Holy Spirit) are all distinct from one another in revelation to our humanity, yet the three persons are each God in revelation never divided One God.

A carnal mind can grasp at this, when man is created in the image and likeness of God (Trinity). The man from his voice sends his word to his lover from his speech, but that word the man sends from his voice has substance within it so that his lover can receive all of himself. What is hidden in the voice and the word the man sends to his lover comes from his spirit which reveals the man love from his heart, his conscience, his intellect which comes from the spirit of the man.

Thus the voice, the word of the man means nothing to his lover, unless the man sends from his voice in the word that which can only come from his spirit “Love”, so that his lover can receive the man’s revelation of his love for his lover.

Although the voice is never the word and his love is never the voice or the word, all of these are distinct from one another, yet they are never separated, but remain one, because they are revealed from the one who speaks and sends his love of revelation.

In conclusion to all that is said here, the blessed Trinity remains a mystery and is not defined here. We can only grasp at such a mystery with the revelations from God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, who reveals the Father in the voice, the Son in the Word and the Love of God in the Holy Spirit distinct in person of revelation to our humanity all three persons never divided One God and no other.

Peace be with you

 

[Dan999]

I thank you for your time. It is illuminating.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Well, I found this: answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/marriage_age.html

And, at the end, they show Bukhari’s Hadith supporting it. And Bukhari is the best and most reliable Hadith collector according to him.

I once asked about Aisha before I found this, but he said she was ready having reached puberty at 9. Bukhari uses her as an example of a prepubescent bride.

So, I settled down when I remembered “By their fruits you will know them.”

But, I visited their mosque when I visited him Saturday and I started having doubts again.

First, find a better site for information on Islam. Not only is that site not scholarly, it’s organized and ran by non-Catholic Christians with their own understanding of what Christianity really is. That, and it’s whole design seems to be to increase outrage/emotions versus actual knowledge of Islam and what it teaches.

Second, stop debating with him. It’s clear to me that he is dictating unreasonable conditions in order to win the debate. Here’s what your “friend” is doing. He takes Item X from your faith and wants you to fully explain it. The slight of hand here is that a)you have no real training in your faith and b)Item X just happens to be one of those items that even the experts on our faith still don’t full understand. “Christianity is wrong because you can’t explain the Trinity” makes about as much sense as “Physics is wrong because you can’t provide a doctorate level thesis on how gravity works.” The other slight of hand is setting the condition of you disproving his faith. This is the opposite of the above. You, a non-expert on Islam, are somehow supposed to prove Islam wrong? That’s like saying “well since you can’t prove once and for all that there aren’t little green men living on Mars there therefore must be little green men living on Mars.”

 

[Matthew_Light]

First, find a better site for information on Islam. Not only is that site not scholarly, it’s organized and ran by non-Catholic Christians with their own understanding of what Christianity really is. That, and it’s whole design seems to be to increase outrage/emotions versus actual knowledge of Islam and what it teaches.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[MartinJordan]

First, find a better site for information on Islam. Not only is that site not scholarly, it’s organized and ran by non-Catholic Christians with their own understanding of what Christianity really is. That, and it’s whole design seems to be to increase outrage/emotions versus actual knowledge of Islam and what it teaches.

Many of its articles however, does defend the Bible (atleast from the 66 books of it) from Muslim apologetics (who also aren’t scholars) . I agree there quite a tendency to fire emotions against Islam.

MJ

 

[Dan999]

First, find a better site for information on Islam. Not only is that site not scholarly, it’s organized and ran by non-Catholic Christians with their own understanding of what Christianity really is. That, and it’s whole design seems to be to increase outrage/emotions versus actual knowledge of Islam and what it teaches.

Second, stop debating with him. It’s clear to me that he is dictating unreasonable conditions in order to win the debate. Here’s what your “friend” is doing. He takes Item X from your faith and wants you to fully explain it. The slight of hand here is that a)you have no real training in your faith and b)Item X just happens to be one of those items that even the experts on our faith still don’t full understand. “Christianity is wrong because you can’t explain the Trinity” makes about as much sense as “Physics is wrong because you can’t provide a doctorate level thesis on how gravity works.” The other slight of hand is setting the condition of you disproving his faith. This is the opposite of the above. You, a non-expert on Islam, are somehow supposed to prove Islam wrong? That’s like saying “well since you can’t prove once and for all that there aren’t little green men living on Mars there therefore must be little green men living on Mars.”

I don’t know. I followed the sources they used. Among them this: bewley.virtualave.net/bukhari35.html

See: XXIX. A man giving his young children in marriage

Iddah is a waiting period for remarriage after divorce. The Quran mandates that there be no waiting period in the case of marriage not being consummated.

Bukhari is their most trusted Hadith collector. The translator, Aisha Bewley is respected in Muslim forums I found her mentioned at. She is a convert to Islam with a Master’s degree in Near Eastern languages.

 

[Martin_Pastore]

You said he is trying to convert you. Don’t get confused and think you are converting him. I wouldn’t debate him in any way. Just tell him if he is really interested in what Catholicism teaches you can suggest a few really good books which could explain things better than you can. Have two or three ready for suggestion on the topics he is bringing up. You are not an apologist or a theologian, so let the ones who are do the explaining in detail. If he isn’t interested in the books, you know his only goal is to convert you, not to understand you, and then you can move on.

Great advice Nacho!

May I suggest buying Baltimore Catechism Vol.#4/Teachers edition.(available@ amazon)

I think it’s a great book, for anyone who wants to learn fundamentals of Catholicism.
Great for Catholics…and if your Muslim friend is really your interested friend, he will really be interested in it…you could study CATHOLICISM together.
If your friend isn’t interested, and just wants to be poking holes in your beliefs.
And as you mentioned is really looking to convert you? Maybe?
Well ,maybe he’s not such a good friend…And maybe, you could ask around your Catholic Church about groups that they sponsor, where you might meet some different friends and bolster your Catholic beliefs at the same time.
God Bless You.
Pray the Rosary.
Peace.

 

[MartinJordan]

Great advice Nacho!

May I suggest buying Baltimore Catechism Vol.#4/Teachers edition.(available@ amazon)

I think it’s a great book, for anyone who wants to learn fundamentals of Catholicism.
Great for Catholics…and if your Muslim friend is really your interested friend, he will really be interested in it…you could study CATHOLICISM together.
If your friend isn’t interested, and just wants to be poking holes in your beliefs.
And as you mentioned is really looking to convert you? Maybe?
Well ,maybe he’s not such a good friend…And maybe, you could ask around your Catholic Church about groups that they sponsor, where you might meet some different friends and bolster your Catholic beliefs at the same time.
God Bless You.
Pray the Rosary.
Peace.

I’d add to focus more holiness. Don’'t depend on your one’s own emotions.

MJ

 

[Martin_Pastore]

I’d add to focus more holiness. Don’'t depend on your one’s own emotions.

MJ

Hi Marty,
I’m sorry, not trying to pick a fight here.
I’m a bit thick…I’m not even sure if your comment is meant for me.(It seems to be, it’s addressed to me).

If it is, I’m interested in what you mean…Maybe you could make it a bit simpler, so that I might understand it.

I’ve been thinking on it, and unfortunately, I can’t see what it’s got to do with the price of lettuce in Donegal.
Best wishes.
Peace.
God Bless.
Pray the Rosary.

 

[RScottH]

Having a good understanding of the bible will help you in this matter.
If you can’t rightly articulate the faith without having doubts about the core fundamentals of Christianity, how can you mount a good defense about the mystery of the trinity?

If he asks you again about the trinity, tell him, God is one in essence, 3 in person, a triune God, hence why we call it a trinity. When he ask how this is rational or possible, tell him it’s a mystery that will be fully revealed when we see him in heaven.

Jesus is the God of the bible incarnate. He accepts worship from his followers, if he was not God then that would be idolatry.
When Jesus said “before Abraham was, I am.” He was claiming to be the IAM of the OT ywyh or Yahweh.

Hebrews 13. 8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

The

 

[RScottH]

I will add this, he won’t ever understand the trinity without God the Father revealing himself to the person.
So you need to pray that the Father will quicken him to newness of life by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Mathew 16

13Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rockb I will build my church, and the gates of hellc shall not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosedd in heaven.” 20Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

 

[MartinJordan]

Hi Marty,
I’m sorry, not trying to pick a fight here.
I’m a bit thick…I’m not even sure if your comment is meant for me.(It seems to be, it’s addressed to me).

If it is, I’m interested in what you mean…Maybe you could make it a bit simpler, so that I might understand it.

I’ve been thinking on it, and unfortunately, I can’t see what it’s got to do with the price of lettuce in Donegal.
Best wishes.
Peace.
God Bless.
Pray the Rosary.

Im agreeing with you Martin. What I meant was is that when one (not you but in general) depends on their own emotions to appeal for guidance in a debate, that’s when the intended explanation will not suffice. One must be Christlike instead.

In this way the one with doubts will recognize the Godliness in that person, rather than look for emotionally charge responses and indecision when defending the Trinity. The scrutinizer will most likely back down and actually try to understand the Trinity as it is understood by the Church (for centuries before Islam).

MJ

 

[Martin_Pastore]

Im agreeing with you Martin. What I meant was is that when one (not you but in general) depends on their own emotions to appeal for guidance in a debate, that’s when the intended explanation will not suffice. One must be Christlike instead.

In this way the one with doubts will recognize the Godliness in that person, rather than look for emotionally charge responses and indecision when defending the Trinity. The scrutinizer will most likely back down and actually try to understand the Trinity as it is understood by the Church (for centuries before Islam).

MJ

Hi Martin,
Thanks for getting back to me. I really appreciate your time and consideration.
I understand your explanation ,and now I “get it”. I especially agree with your statement concerning emotions in a debate.
I read the entire thread ,from top to bottom earlier. I pray for this young man, and his struggle with defending his faith, and what is happening with someone who is supposed to be a “friend”.
Thank you again, for your time and kind words.
Best wishes, Martin Pastore.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I don’t know. I followed the sources they used. Among them this: bewley.virtualave.net/bukhari35.html

See: XXIX. A man giving his young children in marriage

Iddah is a waiting period for remarriage after divorce. The Quran mandates that there be no waiting period in the case of marriage not being consummated.

Bukhari is their most trusted Hadith collector. The translator, Aisha Bewley is respected in Muslim forums I found her mentioned at. She is a convert to Islam with a Master’s degree in Near Eastern languages.

There is a “lovely” site ran by members of a certain non-Catholic Christian faith that has one section dealing with Islam and one section dealing with Catholicism. Both sections have articles that are linked back to authentic documents of both faiths. The only problem is that even based on my shallow knowledge of our faith I can tell you that the Catholic section is filled with anti-Catholic nonsense based on twisted readings of and misquoting of authentic Catholic documents. How accurate do you think the section on Islam is even though the articles in that section also cite authentic Islamic documents and some of the conclusions found in that section match up rather well with conclusions from the non-Catholic, non-professional site you used? How accurate do you think the site you linked will be regarding Islam given that it’s obvious goal isn’t to find the truth, but to prove Islam is wrong?

We Catholics have been blessed by God with an institution that can be trusted to not only find the truth about God, our faith, and all the other faiths; but can also be trusted to accurately rely this knowledge to us. It is a great shame that so many Catholics choice to ignore this institution and instead look elsewhere for the truth.

Now as for the child marriage thing, you’re focusing on the wrong issue. The Church used to allow (and it still may) girls as young as 12 to get married. Horrible right? Not really since the Church, unlike Islam, doesn’t hold how young the bride can be as something divinely permitted by God. The Church could in the future declare that only those who are 24 years old or older can get married. Why? Because the age isn’t the key, but the spiritual development and ability to spiritually and mentally understand what one is entering into with marriage. Ignore the “shock value” of how young she was and instead look at what this means regarding Islamic teachings about marriage and how these teachings differ from Judaism and Christianity.

 

[Tom_Baum]

So, my best friend is Muslim and wants to convert me, but I’ve been having trouble explaining to Him the need for the Incarnation and Death and Resurrection of Jesus. I also have trouble explaining the Saints to him.

I hate arguing by nature. I hate doing this because I am often in doubt.

There is also his questions on the nature of the Trinity. He does not understand how God could be One God, but Three Persons.

As far as “There is also his questions on the nature of the Trinity. He does not understand how God could be One God, but Three Persons.”

Do you understand the Trinity?

Does anyone understand the Trinity?

I do not believe that any human being can “understand” the Trinity.

As much as some try to “explain” the Trinity, they don’t even come close, with some things the best that anyone can do is to just accept that it is and that it is beyond our understanding.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Regarding the Trinity, I’d like you to try my example, to see how it works.

That is Siamese Twins. Two persons in one body. I suppose there could even be Siamese Triplets.

My thinking is that the tragedy of Siamese Twins has a silver lining, in pointing to an example of how the Trinity could be possible.

Siamese Twins = two persons in one body.

Trinity = three persons in one Godhead.

Now, why is that hard to conceive? I know that Siamese Twins are not a perfect example to explain the Trinity; just an example.

I have yet an opportunity to try this example which I think better than the three-leaf clover; water-gas-ice, etc.

Siamese Twins are not two people in one body but two people that are sharing a part or so of a body.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Sorry, that’s actually a heresy called modalism. The Church has condemned this interpretation.

But the Church has never offered an actual interpretation either. Probably because it is a mystery that we are not capable of understanding. It has been said, in a semi-joking manner, that nobody since St. Thomas Aquinas has taught about the Trinity without making a heretic of himself - and we’re not sure about Aquinas.

An idea has been put forth to explain why God MUST be at least two divine beings. It is based on the idea that “God is love.” If God is love, and God is eternal, what did God love before Creation? What will God love after the universe goes cold? If God loved only himself, it would be selfish love. Unselfish, committed love requires another entity. Thus, the Father and the Son, who perfectly love each other.

TO THE OP: Don’t worry about the Holy Spirit at this point. You don’t need to demonstrate the logic of trinity, but only of duality. Duality is demonstrated much more easily than trinity, and it is enough to call a unitarian belief into question.

You wrote, “If God loved only himself, it would be selfish love.”

You are looking at it from a merely worldly and humanly point of view.

You are looking at it as God loving as opposed to God being a Being of Love.

God Is Love is a literal statement, it is something else beside the Trinity that is beyond our understanding, sometimes we have to be big enough to admit our smallness rather that to try and convince ourself that we can “figure it all out”.

 

[SteveVH]

Siamese Twins are not two people in one body but two people that are sharing a part or so of a body.

Yes, do not use the Siamese Twins analogy. It fails horribly as do most analogies. We cannot explain the supernatural by comparing it to the natural. The divine nature of God is unique in all the universe and has no equal in the natural world.

 

[Tom_Baum]

And, I believe, you can do so. You can explain the Trinity. The idea itself is simple (and part of the Creed that we recite at each Mass).

But he’s not asking you to just explain the doctrine, but to defend it. That’s an entirely different thing. Catholics are expected to know the basic tenets of the Faith, but they are not expected to defend them.

Invite him to post his questions here. We welcome Muslims with courtesy (but we see very few of them). Tell him you will follow his threads.

We will explain AND defend the Faith. He might not believe, but I don’t think he will be disappointed.

You wrote, “You can explain the Trinity.”

If he can, than he will probably be the first in the history of creation to be able to “explain the Trinity”.

 

[Tom_Baum]

As another example for the Holy Trinity, simply consider in the Sacrament of Eucharist: There is God, as the Eucharist. There is God made Man as the High Priest. And there is man made God as those who fully receive Holy Communion. Three distinct persons that are the same God.

Regarding why the “need” for the Incarnation and the Death & Resurrection of Jesus, please consider the following understandings:

Catholicism knows God creates man to make him share in his blessed life (CCC#1).

I understand this as God is creating an infinite number of friends. In order to fulfill this creation, God remains the all-knowing law-giver and judge to ensure those in the “Friendly” community remain forever friendly. God becomes equal in being to the friends (Incarnation) and demonstrates the way to be eternally friendly by always freely being, and sharing the means to freely be, patient and kind, even in the face of unjust cruelty to the point of death (Passion, Crucifixion and Resurrection). God also demonstrates the process of becoming forever friendly through eternal spiration in order to validate the understandings of His Church.

Regarding Saints, here is one concept to consider:
When learning a discipline, although one may want to be as great as the best in the discipline, one may have to learn from intermediaries.
If my child wanted to be as great a basketball player as Micheal Jordan, s/he would have to learn from various players and coaches of various skill levels far less than that of Micheal Jordan. Especially because some of the techniques Jordan uses are too complicated for a young player to understand.
So if we want to be as Loving as Jesus, we are going to have to learn from various people of various loving levels in order to eventually understand all of God’s Teachings/Love.

Also, is there something in particular which your friend does not understand about Saints (Humans who enter into Heaven)?

Thank you very much for sharing the intriguing questions! I look forward to more discussion!

Sounds to me that you seem to think that God was a Trinity but that with the Eucharist, God is now an untold number of Persons in One God.