Debating CoC preacher about Infant Baptism

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Isaiah45_9 said:
And saying that Faith is just a response grossly minimizes what it is.
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You might be confused because you may be holding to the standard Protestant formula of “salvation by grace alone through faith alone.” That leads to a confusion between faith and grace such that people become the causes of their own salvation by making acts of faith e.g. by saying the sinner’s prayer. Whether you try to class the sinner’s prayer as “faith” or “works” the fact is it is still something the sinner, not God, does. That is not salvation by grace alone, that is salvation by some human action that forces God to give grace.

Before you try and say that one could say the same thing about baptism, remember that the baby being baptized doesn’t (and indeed can’t) do anything. Which is the whole point–salvation is completely gratuitous. But a response to the gift is demanded by God and that response is faith working through love.

See also QA “The Sinner’s Prayer is All Wet.”
 
NotWorthy said:
I’m not sure if the faith of the preist is even necessary. I understand that an atheists can even baptize someone. There are a few stipulations, but most atheists that I know don’t exactly have faith. 😉

If someone, including a baby, is killed immediately following a valid baptism, then you could easily say that the Baptism saved them.

The baptism does open up Graces that help someone follow the teachings of Christ, making it easier for a Christian to remain in a state of Grace!
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Baptism opens up Graces!?
You mean that our mere action will direct God’s grace???
Making it easier to remain in a state of Grace!?

There is nothing we can do to influence God’s sovereign will.

Grace is God’s and there is nothing, absolutely nothing we can DO to make it easier on us. It is God’s and God’s alone.

I must be completely misunderstanding what you are saying…:confused:
Arizona_Mike said:
My understanding is that neonatal nurses and doctors and EMTs who don’t have a Christian - or any - faith can and have baptized prenatal children, with the approval of the church, that aren’t likely to survive if a priest isn’t available and the parents’ faith is known.
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So we (mere mortal men) are making an exception to God’s law out of convenience and peace of mind for the parents? :eek::confused:

This just shows that while we are born in sin, God in his Holiness and Majesty will give His Grace to whom He chooses. Without any action from man. Salvation is God’s and God’s alone, we can have as many checklists as we want out of the bible and tradition and we will always come short when we act on our own accord.
 
Cat_Herder said:
You might be confused because you may be holding to the standard Protestant formula of “salvation by grace alone through faith alone.” That leads to a confusion between faith and grace such that people become the causes of their own salvation by making acts of faith e.g. by saying the sinner’s prayer. Whether you try to class the sinner’s prayer as “faith” or “works” the fact is it is still something the sinner, not God, does. That is not salvation by grace alone, that is salvation by some human action that forces God to give grace.

Before you try and say that one could say the same thing about baptism, remember that the baby being baptized doesn’t (and indeed can’t) do anything. Which is the whole point–salvation is completely gratuitous. But a response to the gift is demanded by God and that response is faith working through love.

See also QA “The Sinner’s Prayer is All Wet.”
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No, I clearly understand there is nothing I can do on my own to deserve God’s Grace. And I am fully aware of the obedience required by Him. And that I am unable to measure up to God’s standards by myself but only in Christ.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
Baptism opens up Graces!?
You mean that our mere action will direct God’s grace???
Making it easier to remain in a state of Grace!?

There is nothing we can do to influence God’s sovereign will.

Grace is God’s and there is nothing, absolutely nothing we can DO to make it easier on us. It is God’s and God’s alone.

I must be completely misunderstanding what you are saying…:confused:
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No, from your reaction, you are understanding, albeit a little, what I am saying. Our works are beneficial to our Salvation.

Read Matthew 25, man!!! It is crystal clear. Now, granted, God gives us the Graces to perform the good acts, such as identified in Matthew 25, but we can reject those Graces.

Do you really think that God doesn’t love the evil person who does nothing but selfish deeds? No, God gives him the Graces necessary to love God and others, but the evil person rejects those Graces!

So yes!
*Baptism **does **opens up Graces!
Our mere action **will **direct God’s grace!!! (although I wouldn’t put it that way. I’d say, God responds to our “obedience of Faith” with even greater Graces).
Which makes it **easier *to remain in a state of Grace!
Isaiah45_9 said:
So we (mere mortal men) are making an exception to God’s law out of convenience and peace of mind for the parents? :eek::confused:
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No. We are following the actions of the Apostles (baptizing ENTIRE households) and the Truly Apostolic Tradition of the first century Church, who baptized infants as well, as well as the entire 2000 years of the Church!

THAT’S how I would put it!
Isaiah45_9 said:
This just shows that while we are born in sin, God in his Holiness and Majesty will give His Grace to whom He chooses. Without any action from man. Salvation is God’s and God’s alone, we can have as many checklists as we want out of the bible and tradition and we will always come short when we act on our own accord.
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Amen!!!

You keep twisting Catholics words around. If a Catholic says, “Our works our beneficial to Salvation”, you reply, “We can’t earn our Salvation”. No Catholic is claiming that! But Jesus promised that He would give us what was necessary for Salvation. All of us. Even those who fall short.

So what’s the difference? Some act on those Graces and receive a heavenly reward that they did not deserve.

BTW, didn’t you say you went to Catholic School for umpteen years, or am I mixing you up with someone else? If you did, what did they teach you?
 
Cat_Herder said:
Yup

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 2:38-40[/BIBLEDRB]

Then why bother praying?

You are on to something but you went overboard. Please review my previous response.
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It depends on what your understanding of prayer is.

As for me:

[bibledrb]Philippians 4:6-7[/bibledrb]

Jesus prayed Himself
[bibledrb]Mark 1:35[/bibledrb]

Jesus teaches us to pray
[bibledrb]Matthew 6:8-13[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]Luke 18:1[/bibledrb]

Prayer is an act of obedience and of closeness to the Father.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
It depends on what your understanding of prayer is.
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I am asking specifically about the Sacraments, but also tell me whether you think that God will give mercy in response to an appeal for it.

Think about it overnight. 🙂
 
Will read Matthew 25 before going to sleep.

Yes, I was raised on Catholic School Pre-K to 12th grade then in college attended the Dioceses seminary for 4 years taking for electives classes they suggested.

But that was almost 30 years ago… 😛

I remember the nuns walking around with sticks, putting uncooked rice in a corner for us to kneel and pray forgiveness and one particular nun that had a really big ring to hit you in the head with it!

Or Parroquial Monsignor was Franciscan and obedience was really stressed, so was our Bishop. I mostly got along better with the Jesuits and Augustines :D.

Good Night and thanks for taking the time to answer! 🙂
 
Cat_Herder said:
Do you believe it actually does something?

That’s the real issue.

Again, sleep on it. 🙂
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Your cat avatar looks really freaky 😉

I see the baptism of infants in the same light as the OT circumcision covenant. The child is offered to God in obedience. An act from the Grace and Faith given to the parents and the godfathers/mothers. Without faith, water is just water.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
Your cat avatar looks really freaky 😉

I see the baptism of infants in the same light as the OT circumcision covenant. The child is offered to God in obedience. An act from the Grace and Faith given to the parents and the godfathers/mothers. Without faith, water is just water.
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Again… That makes humans and their merits the arbiters of salvation instead of it being a gratuitous act of God’s grace.

Humans have free will. Thus faith is not entirely an act of God. God will not force anyone to believe in or trust him, in other words, man has to act for there to be faith. So if faith is a precondition to salvation then man’s actions cause salvation.

God saves through grace, not faith. The baby of an atheist family who dies due to miscarriage can be saved anyway if God wills it (and He does, see 1 Tim 2:3-4). Likewise if an atheist has been hit by a car and is dying and a Catholic performs an emergency baptism then the atheist goes to heaven.

Faith is a response to grace and it is also a gift of the Holy Spirit that keeps the Christian from falling. This it’s necessary to salvation in the sense that not having it, willfully and deliberately, is a mortal sin.

Does that make sense?
 
I posted this from another thread, I’ll add a couple of things since I can embed DRB now 😃

God’s Grace before everything!

[bibledrb]John 6:44[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]Romans 10:17[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]John 3:16[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]Isaiah 30:15[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]1 John 1:9[/bibledrb]

Faith is a lifetime of work and obedience

[bibledrb]1 Thessalonians 2:13[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]Romans 1:5[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]Romans 16:26-27[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]Galatians 5:5-6[/bibledrb]

Whatever good we have is from God and not from our works:

[bibledrb]James 1:16-17[/bibledrb]

Faith is not just hearing it is work

[bibledrb]James 1:22-25[/bibledrb]

Faith moves us because we Trust the Word of God and want to be obedient, faith moves us to work in the teaching of God.

While you see faith and work separate, I don’t.

And it is not just faith (which is shown as works) but Charity (Love) as well.
One of my favorite passages:

[bibledrb]1 Corinthians 13[/bibledrb]
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
I posted this from another thread, I’ll add a couple of things since I can embed DRB now 😃

God’s Grace before everything!

Faith is a lifetime of work and obedience

Whatever good we have is from God and not from our works:

Faith is not just hearing it is work

Faith moves us because we Trust the Word of God and want to be obedient, faith moves us to work in the teaching of God.

While you see faith and work separate, I don’t.

And it is not just faith (which is shown as works) but Charity (Love) as well.
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Uh… what is being argued here? This is all good Catholic doctrine. You see, you DID learn something while kneeling on that rice! 😉
 
NotWorthy said:
Uh… what is being argued here? This is all good Catholic doctrine. You see, you DID learn something while kneeling on that rice! 😉
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You mean we have been dancing around the same thing!!! My head hurts 😊

Hey about that rice! 😛
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
You mean we have been dancing around the same thing!!! My head hurts 😊

Hey about that rice! 😛
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Actually, I think the argument is:
a) Is Baptism, especially infant baptism, efficacious? Catholic teach that it removes Original Sin (although we are still stained). This removal of OS opens us up to further Graces from God, making it easier to follow His ways. There’s more to it than that, but I think this covers the general gist of it.
b) Do we participate in our own Salvation. From what I’ve gathered from your posts, I assume you believe in pre-destination, in the sense that John Calvin taught it.
 
NotWorthy said:
Actually, I think the argument is:
a) Is Baptism, especially infant baptism, efficacious? Catholic teach that it removes Original Sin (although we are still stained). This removal of OS opens us up to further Graces from God, making it easier to follow His ways. There’s more to it than that, but I think this covers the general gist of it.
b) Do we participate in our own Salvation. From what I’ve gathered from your posts, I assume you believe in pre-destination, in the sense that John Calvin taught it.
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Not as much of Calvin’s but of Paul’s pre-destinations. But that is an entire new thread and I just started reading Augustine’s “On Grace and Free Will” amongst other things, so I don’t want to start on that… yet. 😃

I think we all missed the whole point (while you were closer than I was :p) and it just dawned on me after reading Ephesians 5:22-26.

[bibledrb]Ephesians 5:26[/bibledrb]

Water is just water, but water with the Word of God is baptism.

I understand that I am wrong thinking that faith makes baptism by itself. My faith receives baptism and in the case of children, they are offered in faith to receive the sacrament of the cleansing (water) power of the Word of God.

I stand corrected :gopray:
 
If you want a laugh, try arguing with a COC member. Your arguments will be fruitless, unless you have nearly an eternity to discuss objections at length. Trust me on this. I gotta lot of COCs in my family, elders, deacons and preachers. LOTS! I was one of them.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
Not as much of Calvin’s but of Paul’s pre-destinations. But that is an entire new thread and I just started reading Augustine’s “On Grace and Free Will” amongst other things, so I don’t want to start on that… yet. 😃

I think we all missed the whole point (while you were closer than I was :p) and it just dawned on me after reading Ephesians 5:22-26.

[bibledrb]Ephesians 5:26[/bibledrb]

Water is just water, but water with the Word of God is baptism.

I understand that I am wrong thinking that faith makes baptism by itself. My faith receives baptism and in the case of children, they are offered in faith to receive the sacrament of the cleansing (water) power of the Word of God.

I stand corrected :gopray:
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So, what about our participating in our own Salvation?
 
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