Debating Fundies

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Try starting a discussion based upon the definition of pagan provided by Father John Hardon S.J in the Modern Catholic Dictionary.

PAGAN, A heathen. In general one who practices idolatry. Formerly used to describe anyone who did not profess monotheism, and still used by Christians, Jews, and Moslems to identify a person who does not believe in one God, Creator of heaven and earth. More properly a pagan is a person who has abandoned all religious belief, i.e., an irreligious person. (Etym. Latin paganus, countryman, villager, civilian: from pagus , district, province, village.)
and

IDOLATRY. Literally, “the worship of idols,” it is giving divine honors to a creature. In the Decalouge (Ten Commandments) it is part of the first commandment of God, in which Yahweh tells the people, “You shall have no gods except me. You shall not make yourself a carved image (Greek eidolon, idol) or any likeness of anything in heaven or on earth or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to tem or serve them” (Exodus 20:4-5).
The early Christians were martyred for refusing to worship idols, even externally, but practical idolatry is a perennial threat to the worship of the one true God. Modern secularism is a form of practical idolatry, which claims to give man “freedom to be an end unto himself, the sole artisan and creator of his own history.” Such freedom, it is said , “cannot be reconciled with affirmation of a Lord who is author and purpose of all thins,” or at least that this freedom “makes such an affirmation altogether superfluous” (Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Church, LG 51).
Idolatry is always gravely sinful. Even under the threat of death and without interiorly believing in the idol, a Christian may not give divine honors to a creature, thereby violating the duty of professing faith in God.

Reference material by Father John A. Hardon, S.J.

Modern Catholic Dictionary ISBN: 0-9672989-1-1
note give outstanding definitions of many terms.

The Catholic Catechism , A Contemporary Catechism of the Teachings of the Catholic Church ISBN: 0-385-08045-X

Note This is an aplogetics oriented catechism, and can be used in conjunction with the CCC or any magisterial document.

Father Hardon wrote a catechism for Blessed Mother Theresa and he was an advisor to Pope Paul VI. Also Father Hardon communicated with many Protestants over the years.
 
Mot Juste:
I agree with Timz, and would ask that we be a little more cognizant of making unfair generalizations about “fundamentalists” and “evangelicals”. The people who populate anti-catholic message boards do not represent fundamentalism or evangelical Christianity as a whole. They may not even be representative of their particular denomination…
That is why the terms “fundies” or “Rebo” is appropriate
It can serve to distinguish the nice regular fundamentalist from the cranks
 
Shew, 14 and you’re debating via email. Congrats to you! Its good to see the youth (I’m a youth, not trying to sound like some of you old people;)) really getting INTO the faith. Go you!
 
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maesoph:
He did not write one word of scripture. He did not commission the Apostles to write scripture. He did not prepare the first century Christians for a upcoming authoritative book - or the written word at all for that matter.
I once tried this line of reasoning with a Fundamentalist, only to be reminded that in the 1st Chapter of the Apocalypse, Verse 11 the Apostle John was told: What thou seest* write in a** book (my emphasis), and send to the seven churches, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamum, and to Thyatira, an dto Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicean."*

Could you comment on this, the fact that Jesus never told any of his Apostles to write anything down?
 
I think when he says Jesus, he meant during his life, and when John received this, it was obviously a Revelation after his death. He is also telling John to simply write REVELATIONS in a book, not “write a big bad holy book of stuff that happened to us.”

Hope that helps some.:ehh:
 
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FuzzyBunny116:
I think when he says Jesus, he meant during his life, and when John received this, it was obviously a Revelation after his death. He is also telling John to simply write REVELATIONS in a book, not “write a big bad holy book of stuff that happened to us.”

Hope that helps some.:ehh:
Some. Will it, however, make a difference from the point of view of the Fundamentalist?

Or, I guess, we have to be careful how to approach this subject and say that during Jesus’ life on earth he never instructed any of his Apostles to write things down for it to be collected in book form.
 
Sounds alright. Remember, many people couldn’t read at that time period as far as I know, and coping books was meticulious and long. Not to mention the entire Bible! I read that Rabbi’s were famous for having memorized their holy book (Torah? My knowledge of Judism is squat). At that time, basing everything off of a book was just not feasible (I still don’t think it is, but at least people can get that book).
 
Shew, 14 and you’re debating via email. Congrats to you! Its good to see the youth (I’m a youth, not trying to sound like some of you old people) really getting INTO the faith. Go you!
Thank you. The real reason, however, is that they hit me pretty close to home. I had a friend who was Roman Catholic, but he was heavily tormented in school for various reasons. Broken down and hopeless, a radical (mind you, radical) Methodist invited him to a youth group of sorts. There, while he was broken down, they built him back up like they wanted to. When I recently called him (he is out of state), he began condemning everyone but Methodists to hell, myself included.

Needless to say, I found anti-Catholic fundamentalism, whatever denomination, repulsive, and decided to fight for my faith.
 
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maesoph:
I don’t know if this will work or not, but it might get her attention. Ask her to take a step back and ask the most basic, fundamental question of Christianity… “What did Christ institute?” Think about it, God on Earth and what did he do???

He did not write one word of scripture. He did not commission the Apostles to write scripture. He did not prepare the first century Christians for a upcoming authoritative book - or the written word at all for that matter. Furthermore, the Apostles seemingly didn’t make writing any sort of priority. Depending on who you think wrote what, basically 3 (min) - 5 (max) Apostles out of 11 wrote anything apparently. Christ in no way, shape or form instituted the Bible as any rule of faith, let alone the sole rule of faith. Christ instituted a CHURCH - end of story. Now, not to belittle the Bible, which Christ did not institute, but the Bible is a record of the things that Christ DID institute!!!

Church
Papacy
Priesthood

Baptism
Confession
Eucharist
Confirmation
Annointing of the sick
Marriage
Holy Orders

Wow, that sounds Catholic to me. I actually thought all of this up today, so it isn’t all that developed of an argument, and it could also be wrong too… (aka disclaimer!)

I went through a Christian crises recently after laughing at all of the holes in the book of Mormon… “Who could believe such a thing?” I thought, but then I found a web site that kindly mentioned all of the holes in the Bible… One of which is that we don’t know who wrote some of the books of the Bible… Don’t you think that knowing who wrote something would be a prerequisite to declaring it infallible??? OUCH!!! Then it came to me that Christ didn’t institute a Bible, he instituted a Church that still exists today against all odds and in spite of itself at times!!!

Hope that helps!!!

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Is it just me, or is this a very insiteful analysis!

NotWorthy
 
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NotWorthy:
Is it just me, or is this a very insiteful analysis!

NotWorthy
It’s not just you - I think it’s really good too! Thanks maesoph!
 
I would also like to say as one who fell away from the Catholic Church at a young age and was drawn into a Protestant church in my early 20’s, these two things:

It seems that there are some people, who having been raised in a Catholic home (to various degrees of depth) reach adulthood with very little understanding of their faith and tend to fall away. And being drawn to God by the Holy Spirit, go in search of a connection to the God they thought they new at some point in their lives.

And this search could be months, or it could be years and could include reading about stuff to becoming fully engrossed in it and that can lead to “bashing” the Catholic Church - and I truly believe that it’s not meant to be vindictive and mean - it is because there are Protestant groups out there that fuel the fire of pointing out why the Catholic Church is wrong. I suppose that lends a lot of understanding as to why they are called Protest-ant!

Anyway - pray for those who have fallen way/left/rejected the Catholic upbringing they were given. Polish up your charity when dealing with them. Don’t get all fired up with adrenaline when “arguing.” It is the love of Christ that will draw them to the truth and the Holy Spirit working in them, and maybe through you to help them see the truth.

Sometimes, what’s actually happening, is not that they are all fired up about what they think and they want to bash Catholics for being wrong - sometimes, what’s happening is: they are learning conflicting information and cannot rationalize it or reconcile it with what they were raised on - so in their confusion, they are lashing out.

make sense?

I hope so… I lived through it, so I hope you’ll extend some charity and understanding in your dealings, as I’m sure you are.

thanks!!
 
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