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hockeyfan
Guest
Using that logic, all of the Protestants would have to abandon Christianity because Judas was an Apostle and he did evil when he betrayed Jesus. The same may apply to Peter.
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1SeekingChrist
Guest
ROFL!!! Oh my gosh, I laughed SOOOO hard at this! All to familiar between my wife and I!
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John21652
Guest
Show them this news story and tell them sex abuse is not confined to the Church and is a small percentage of a much larger societal problem. The Church is cleaning out its house. What are the antagonists doing about secular society and sexual abuse?
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nickybr38
Guest
Honestly this probably isn’t a good forum for me (the one in question in this thread) because I do struggle with stereotyping Protestants as Catholic-haters and I’m trying very hard to let this go but man! That place is not helping as the majority there are rabid Catholic haters (atheist or Protestant on that forum).Not saying you’re doing this, but please don’t stereotype ALL non-Catholics and Atheists in the way that SOME non-Catholics and Atheists you mention are doing.
I’ve seriously been thinking of leaving except that I do get into some very good discussions over there too so I’m hesitant to give it up. Ah well.I’ll be in prayer and asking for some wisdom on this one.
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
The approach you are using is good. Just some comments which may help people understand.
The devils emptied hell and they are all here on earth doing Satan’s bidding. To get people to turn away from God, the big prize is not your soul or mine, not even the soul of the president. It is the soul of priests who belong to God through the Church. The Church holds the Way, the Truth and the Life through Christ and through our priests, making them and the Church target number one. I bet the devil dances a jig every time a priest is tempted to sin.
Priests are not always immune from the toxic immorality of the fallen world and there were homosexuals and pedophiles who managed to enter the priesthood and climb the ranks. As with many big organizations, implementation of the mission gets unwieldy and no doubt can go in the wrong direction, as it did in the clergy sex abuse and its handling.
This does not nullify the great work that the Church through its priests and religious have done through the centuries in education and health care. I suppose critics of the Church and the priests do not want to point to said areas where the Church has done no small achievement because there is no great scandal or drama there.
However, there was a drama playing out in the 80’s that has do with sexuality. A great number of homosexuals were dropping like flies because of AIDS (notice the timing – some years following the declassification of homosexuality as a disorder in the DSM in 1973). Does anyone remember that St. Vincent’s Hospital was the epicenter of New York City’s AIDS epidemic? It housed the first and largest AIDS ward on the east coast and is often referred to as the “ground zero” of the AIDS epidemic. Priests and nuns along with the medical professionals of the Catholic hospital were giving comfort and care to the dying afflicted by AIDS.
Works of grace and mercy were being performed elsewhere in Catholic institutions. Archbishop now Cardinal Dolan recalls a story of how a man dying of AIDS at the Gift of Peace Hospice in Washington DC, administered by the Missionaries of Charity asked for baptism. When the priest asked for an expression of faith, the dying man whispered, “All I know is that I’m unhappy, and these sisters are very happy, even when I curse them and spit on them. Yesterday I finally asked them why they were so happy. They replied, ‘Jesus.’ I want this Jesus so I can finally be happy.”
If the Catholics do not defend or help the good priests and bishops who comprise the majority, we lose our conduit to grace through the sacraments, the Eucharist, our connection to Jesus Christ Himself.
To regain its moral authority damaged by clergy sex abuse, the CC, following the findings of the John Jay study, has instituted corrections to include but not limited to: restitution and support to the victims of abuse, more stringent screening and selection in priest formation, and implementation of best practices in parishes and schools (the way businesses manage risks in prevention of wrongdoing, in this case, of child sex abuse).
The clergy sex abuse and any cover up done were wrong, but the whole Church is not evil.
,
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twoangels
Guest
I’d recommend getting a copy of Peter Kreeft’s book “Socratic Logic.” It is a textbook on logic and has a has a great chapter on fallasies. When they are using a fallasies, it is best not to respond to it, but to address only points that actually contribute to a true argument. That will keep you on subject and keep you from taking the bait that will get you frustrated in the end.
I’d also use that book to work on your critical thinking skills. If you’re just mentally recording what the apologists say to you and pressing the play button its evidence than you haven’t unpacked the idea enough to really do anything more than press play. Certainly the idea has helped reaffirm your faith, but that doesn’t mean it’ll convince a non-believer. Because you haven’t unpacked the idea, it’ll be difficult for you to actually engage in active listening and get actively involved in debate. Instead you will continue to pigeon hole everyone’s ideas which tends to lead to strawman arguments.
I’d also use that book to work on your critical thinking skills. If you’re just mentally recording what the apologists say to you and pressing the play button its evidence than you haven’t unpacked the idea enough to really do anything more than press play. Certainly the idea has helped reaffirm your faith, but that doesn’t mean it’ll convince a non-believer. Because you haven’t unpacked the idea, it’ll be difficult for you to actually engage in active listening and get actively involved in debate. Instead you will continue to pigeon hole everyone’s ideas which tends to lead to strawman arguments.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Dear OP:
I would separate the activity of hierarchical decision-making (reporting, holding clerical sex abusers accountable, etc.) from the activity of the sex abusers. I would parallel this with similar secular examples: Because military officials and political figures have lied and/or under-reported U.S. military atrocities, level of military involvement, etc., does not mean that the former actively encouraged or approved of such events. (Sometimes such horrifying revelations were perpetrated by rogue officers acting in an insubordinate manner.) In both cases, though, they are legitimate reflections on leadership. Many very orthodox Catholic clerics have condemned such poor or inconsistent leadership on our Church’s part; it’s a legitimate complaint by insiders and by outsiders, regarding the response to a human crisis and human injustice, with far-reaching consequences.
It’s necessary then to step back and ask your opposers if their parents are perfect. Since zero percent of parents are perfect, does such imperfection and even occasional serious failings & negligence de-legitimize parental authority? Does it render all parental advice suspect? All parental standards of conduct hypocritical?
Only young children hold adults to impossible standards.
I would separate the activity of hierarchical decision-making (reporting, holding clerical sex abusers accountable, etc.) from the activity of the sex abusers. I would parallel this with similar secular examples: Because military officials and political figures have lied and/or under-reported U.S. military atrocities, level of military involvement, etc., does not mean that the former actively encouraged or approved of such events. (Sometimes such horrifying revelations were perpetrated by rogue officers acting in an insubordinate manner.) In both cases, though, they are legitimate reflections on leadership. Many very orthodox Catholic clerics have condemned such poor or inconsistent leadership on our Church’s part; it’s a legitimate complaint by insiders and by outsiders, regarding the response to a human crisis and human injustice, with far-reaching consequences.
It’s necessary then to step back and ask your opposers if their parents are perfect. Since zero percent of parents are perfect, does such imperfection and even occasional serious failings & negligence de-legitimize parental authority? Does it render all parental advice suspect? All parental standards of conduct hypocritical?
Only young children hold adults to impossible standards.
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