Debating the Chaplain

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mattlieber

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I have been debating my unit Chaplain ( some flavor of Protestant) and come up against some difficult arguments. I was surprised to learn that I am an Arminian ( sarcasm intended) when I flatly rejected Calvinism as ignorant of the character of God. I have to admit that the Chaplain is quite a bit better than me at quoting the Bible so I am coming here for a little help as it were. What is really difficult for me is that I find myself talking in alien terms ie Arminianism.

No, Catholics are not Armenians, I told him. In fact the term is not in our lexicon for describing ourselves. I cite this just to kind of put out the kind of help I really need. Rebuttals of proof texts and explanations of obscure Protestant terms.

So my first question. Are we slaves of Christ or are we Freed in Christ?

My Catholic answer is we are freed in Christ.
The Chaplain brings up Paul’s description of himself as a slave of Christ.
I rebut, he is not being literal. This is like saying your love is so strong you are bound to Christ in your heart. Not a literal Master slave relationship.

All of this is in the context of the Calvinism debate. Help!
 
mattlieber said:
I have been debating my unit Chaplain ( some flavor of Protestant) and come up against some difficult arguments. I was surprised to learn that I am an Arminian ( sarcasm intended) when I flatly rejected Calvinism as ignorant of the character of God. I have to admit that the Chaplain is quite a bit better than me at quoting the Bible so I am coming here for a little help as it were. What is really difficult for me is that I find myself talking in alien terms ie Arminianism.

No, Catholics are not Armenians, I told him. In fact the term is not in our lexicon for describing ourselves. I cite this just to kind of put out the kind of help I really need. Rebuttals of proof texts and explanations of obscure Protestant terms.

So my first question. Are we slaves of Christ or are we Freed in Christ?

My Catholic answer is we are freed in Christ.
The Chaplain brings up Paul’s description of himself as a slave of Christ.
I rebut, he is not being literal. This is like saying your love is so strong you are bound to Christ in your heart. Not a literal Master slave relationship.

All of this is in the context of the Calvinism debate. Help!
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In the chaplain’s mind, how does the “slaves in Christ” vs. “freed in Christ” dichotomy have to do with the Calvinism vs. Catholicism/Arminianism debate?
 
mattlieber said:
I have been debating my unit Chaplain ( some flavor of Protestant) and come up against some difficult arguments. I was surprised to learn that I am an Arminian ( sarcasm intended) when I flatly rejected Calvinism as ignorant of the character of God. I have to admit that the Chaplain is quite a bit better than me at quoting the Bible so I am coming here for a little help as it were. What is really difficult for me is that I find myself talking in alien terms ie Arminianism.

No, Catholics are not Armenians, I told him. In fact the term is not in our lexicon for describing ourselves. I cite this just to kind of put out the kind of help I really need. Rebuttals of proof texts and explanations of obscure Protestant terms.

So my first question. Are we slaves of Christ or are we Freed in Christ?

My Catholic answer is we are freed in Christ.
The Chaplain brings up Paul’s description of himself as a slave of Christ.
I rebut, he is not being literal. This is like saying your love is so strong you are bound to Christ in your heart. Not a literal Master slave relationship.

All of this is in the context of the Calvinism debate. Help!
Click to expand...
I would steer away from useless debates or false dichotomies like being slaves of Christ vs. freed in Christ. Obviously we are both. It sounds to me like you and this chaplain need to clarify your terms and understand the theological diversity that exists on this topic. I would talk to him about Thomism and Molinism, their distinction from Calvinism and Arminianism, and identify what exactly your own position on the subject is.

I will say that many poorly informed Catholics do seem to me to be essentially Arminians on this issue, but it seems you deny that designation and identify with something else instead. What is the position you hold on the issue?
 
Specifically on the slavery vs. freedom in Christ question your chaplain raised:

**Commenting on Christ’s words “My yoke is easy and my burden light,” St. Augustine said:

Any other burden oppresses and crushes you, but Christ’s actually takes weight off you. Any other burden weighs you down, but Christ’s gives you wings.

If you take a bird’s wings away, you might seem to be taking weight off it. But the more weight you take off, the more you tie it down to the earth. There it is on the ground, and you wanted to relieve it of a weight.

Give it back the weight of its wings and you will see how it flies.**

So, the yoke (slavery) of Christ is that which unyokes us (makes us free). Tell him to consult the patristic tradition if he has any more questions on hermeneutics, lol.
 
AssisiFollower said:
Tell him to consult the patristic tradition if he has any more questions on hermeneutics, lol.
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Protestants often don’t care about what the early Church believed. Their denomination’s founder or individual believers (i.e., themselves) are, they hold, competent enough to figure everything out from the Bible with the aid of commentaries. sigh
 
Trebor135 said:
Protestants often don’t care about what the early Church believed. Their denomination’s founder or individual believers (i.e., themselves) are, they hold, competent enough to figure everything out from the Bible with the aid of commentaries. sigh
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Nonsense, Trebor. Most Protestant pastors do use commentaries for study aids.
 
Trebor135 said:
Protestants often don’t care about what the early Church believed. Their denomination’s founder or individual believers (i.e., themselves) are, they hold, competent enough to figure everything out from the Bible with the aid of commentaries. sigh
Click to expand...
Actually this is true. OP, since your chaplain is actually engaging in conversation with you on this, you might begin by challenging the foundations of his tradition…
 
AbideWithMe said:
Nonsense, Trebor. Most Protestant pastors do use commentaries for study aids.
Click to expand...
You missed the end of my sentence (emphasis added)–

Their denomination’s founder or individual believers (i.e., themselves) are, they hold, competent enough to figure everything out from the Bible with the aid of commentaries.
 
Trebor135 said:
You missed the end of my sentence (emphasis added)–

Their denomination’s founder or individual believers (i.e., themselves) are, they hold, competent enough to figure everything out from the Bible with the aid of commentaries.
Click to expand...
Oh, sorry, Trebor…I misread, and thought you wrote “without the aid of commentaries”. :o It’s been a long day.
 
I will say that many poorly informed Catholics do seem to me to be essentially Arminians on this issue, but it seems you deny that designation and identify with something else instead. What is the position you hold on the issue?

I think this is the heart of the matter. I am by no means a theological expert and mainly focus on what is affirmatively laid out by the Church in the Catechism and the Bible. A decent history book invalidates most of the Protestant viewpoint in my mind so I’ve not spent much time dealing with their theology. So when the Chaplain claims I am a Arminian and then spells out what Arminians believe, I realize their are similarities in Catholicism but it is not accurate to say we are Arminians. Any help with distinguishing Thomism with Arminianism would be appreciated!

In my survey of Calvinism I am thoroughly convinced that it is incorrect. What an arrogant ideology completely disrespectful to the character of God.
 
mattlieber said:
I have been debating my unit Chaplain ( some flavor of Protestant) and come up against some difficult arguments. I was surprised to learn that I am an Arminian ( sarcasm intended) when I flatly rejected Calvinism as ignorant of the character of God. I have to admit that the Chaplain is quite a bit better than me at quoting the Bible so I am coming here for a little help as it were. What is really difficult for me is that I find myself talking in alien terms ie Arminianism.

No, Catholics are not Armenians, I told him. In fact the term is not in our lexicon for describing ourselves. I cite this just to kind of put out the kind of help I really need. Rebuttals of proof texts and explanations of obscure Protestant terms.

So my first question. Are we slaves of Christ or are we Freed in Christ?

My Catholic answer is we are freed in Christ.
The Chaplain brings up Paul’s description of himself as a slave of Christ.
I rebut, he is not being literal. This is like saying your love is so strong you are bound to Christ in your heart. Not a literal Master slave relationship.

All of this is in the context of the Calvinism debate. Help!
Click to expand...
What is a unit Chaplin? Are you in the military and is a unit Chaplin the only religous figure that is available to you? Are there Catholic Chaplins available?
Is he picking the topic to debate or are you?
If he has challenged you with this topic, I have to wonder if he is trying to convert you.
I’m sorry if it seems I am not helping you to debate him in this matter, because my first concern is that there may be Chaplins in the military who are using that position to direct people into their brand of christianity rather than to be there for spiritual support.
 
Strawberry,

Yes I am in the military. We have a Catholic chaplain on post in a different unit so I see him at Mass but don’t have occasion to socialize.

Pretty much every Protestant I have ever met is trying to convert someone. But I am honestly friends first with our unit Chaplain and if anyone started the debate it was me. In any case I am sumpremely confident in the teaching of the Church and see this mainly as an opportunity for me clarify in my own mind certain things. The other is to dispell the stereotypical Protestant ideas about Catholicism. I find the Church’s rejoinder to celebrate the commonalities and recognize that our Protestant brothers are in fact brethren telling about which system is truly self confident. I very much doubt that judgement day will include a quiz on the merits of Calvinism, Thomism and Arminianism - so as a person of faith I am more eager to talk plainly about what I believe.

In any case the Chaplain is my friend and I would not say this to him so indelicately but I find Calvinism rather repugnant, arrogant and egotistical - so if I am in danger of being converted to anything, it’s not going to be into some brand of a Calvinist.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
I will say that many poorly informed Catholics do seem to me to be essentially Arminians on this issue, but it seems you deny that designation and identify with something else instead. What is the position you hold on the issue?
Click to expand...
Apologies! I neglected to answer your question. I would probably identify with the Molinists. Bit truthfully such things aren’t really a day to day concern for me. My daily focus is on mindful prayer and simple imitation.
 
mattlieber said:
Strawberry,

Yes I am in the military. We have a Catholic chaplain on post in a different unit so I see him at Mass but don’t have occasion to socialize.

Pretty much every Protestant I have ever met is trying to convert someone. But I am honestly friends first with our unit Chaplain and if anyone started the debate it was me. In any case I am sumpremely confident in the teaching of the Church and see this mainly as an opportunity for me clarify in my own mind certain things. The other is to dispell the stereotypical Protestant ideas about Catholicism. I find the Church’s rejoinder to celebrate the commonalities and recognize that our Protestant brothers are in fact brethren telling about which system is truly self confident. I very much doubt that judgement day will include a quiz on the merits of Calvinism, Thomism and Arminianism - so as a person of faith I am more eager to talk plainly about what I believe.

In any case the Chaplain is my friend and I would not say this to him so indelicately but I find Calvinism rather repugnant, arrogant and egotistical - so if I am in danger of being converted to anything, it’s not going to be into some brand of a Calvinist.
Click to expand...
I am glad to know that you are not being pressured into anything.
FYI- IMHO you have a much better “leg” to stand on in this friendly exchange. Keep doing what you are doing, and let him see with his own eyes how you keep on keeping on.
He could be the type that would be influenced greatly by example.
 
I would say to him, if we are going to quote the bible, then do we know how the new testament came into existence. We can’t base arguments on the bible unless we know the source. Do you know the source of the new testament? of course the real source is the Catholic Church.
If you can show him this, then he is quoting what the catholic church gave him.

It’s a good idea to direct the questions rather than let him do it. Or at least lead him into your questions. Suggest that if he asks a question, then you should have the next question.

Just some thoughts.​

“There are deeds you alone must do, there are words only you can say. Trust in me and do not tremble, for I go with you to show you the way.” (hymn)
 
Hi mattlieber

From what I understand both Augustine and Aquinas shared a view on election very similar to Calvin (albeit with the ‘elect’ then sharing in the sacramental life of the Church).

Recent Catholic teaching does appear to be closer to Armianism in that the more common view today is that grace is offered to all and each person may reject or accept.

Here is Aquinas rebutting objections to predestination: newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm
 
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