Debating with Communists

[rlg94086]

Nope. Without Marxist theory, it would be just primitive idealism - you talk to Marxists and you’ll get a Marxist argument about the ‘inevitable’. The purpose of the movement will be, in one form or another, how the ‘inevitable’ can be speeded-up (and how other sects’ interpretations are wrong).

Maybe, and maybe not. Most Communists in America from my personal experience are more enamored and tied to the idealism than they are the “inevitable.” I’m not sure knocking out the inevitable will actually succeed in causing them to lose their idealism.

Isambard:

The person would need to know a little about comparative economics and specifically, value theories. Marxist economics’ labour theory of value suffers from an ad hoc analysis that makes it terrible at determining prescriptive economic measures.

As for classical Marxists, just conjure up some Darwin. ToE does more than shoot down creationist pseudo-science. It also shoots hole in Marx’s goal oriented vision of the development of man.

This said, I doubt you could ever “obliterate Marxism” in any debate. Simply, its already so incredibly pervasive in just about every single social science you could think of, and even in everyday language. You could attack some theories, but you need to know the scope and limitations. Hence why I initially recommeded reading Marx before you attempt to debate.

I mostly agree with you. I am not an ecomonics expert, but I did read Das Kapital and the Communist Manifesto years ago. At the time, I considered myself a Communist, but I came to the realization that it would not work. The argument I use against Communism is the same that I use against any idealist political/economic philosophy - that they won’t work due to the fallen nature of mankind.

 

[Kaninchen]

Maybe, and maybe not. Most Communists in America from my personal experience are more enamored and tied to the idealism than they are the “inevitable.” I’m not sure knocking out the inevitable will actually succeed in causing them to lose their idealism.

I suppose my experience has all been with hard-line ideologues who were not too unhappy with the problems of omelettes and eggs. In America I made a point of not discussing politics at all.

 

[Kaninchen]

"But we should be warned. When Solzhenitsyn published The Gulag Archipelago in English from 1974, warning of the horrors of the Soviet system he’d somehow survived, his revelations struck many intellectuals in the West like a clap of thunder.

“What? Nice communism, meant to help people, actually slaughtered them in their millions? Who’d have thought?”

Read the full article before debating with Communists.

Nonsense, it was known well before Solzhenitsyn.

The Soviets even admitted it themselves. Anybody who had read, or read about, Khruschev’s (self-serving) 1956 “Special Report To The 20th Congress Of The Communist Party Of The Soviet Union” which was published across the world knew a lot about what had gone on.

 

[rlg94086]

I suppose my experience has all been with hard-line ideologues who were not too unhappy with the problems of omelettes and eggs. In America I made a point of not discussing politics at all.

Yes. You’ve made that point *ad nauseum. *I’m not sure why you think that is a virtue. I had some fantastic discussions about politics when I briefly lived in the UK and during my trips to headquarters in Holland. I think it helps to learn about others’ positions through healthy debate.

 

[Isambard]

Yes. You’ve made that point *ad nauseum. *I’m not sure why you think that is a virtue. I had some fantastic discussions about politics when I briefly lived in the UK and during my trips to headquarters in Holland. I think it helps to learn about others’ positions through healthy debate.

Eh, I too hate discussing American politics…with Americans anyways .

I get a strong sense of dichotomous thinking when speaking with them where each sides sees the other as Satan incarnate, and the myriad of outside political views are seen as non-existant.

 

[rlg94086]

Eh, I too hate discussing American politics…with Americans anyways .

I get a strong sense of dichotomous thinking when speaking with them where each sides sees the other as Satan incarnate, and the myriad of outside political views are seen as non-existant.

IOW…you don’t like to debate because you believe you are superior. That figures.

 

[Kaninchen]

Yes. You’ve made that point ad nauseum.

One has to remember that not all posters have been around for very long or have read all threads. Sorry for any inconvenience caused, though.

I’m not sure why you think that is a virtue. I had some fantastic discussions about politics when I briefly lived in the UK and during my trips to headquarters in Holland. I think it helps to learn about others’ positions through healthy debate.

 

[Isambard]

IOW…you don’t like to debate because you believe you are superior. That figures.

Not at all. I just consider it fruitless (and even a little dangerous) to be continously debating folks who are strong in their dogma.

That said, I regularly engage in debate at school and online about politics and economics, though I usually try to debate folks who I feel know the jargon. Makes it much much easier to get points across

 

[rlg94086]

I can’t that say I found American politics terribly interesting and the tendency to hyperbole in characterizing the positions of others was, from a European’s perspective, just amusing.

Interesting. When I was in Europe and the Europeans and Brits used hyperbole, I just figured they felt strong about their opinions. I didn’t consider my view superior and their’s amusing.

 

[Kaninchen]

Interesting. When I was in Europe and the Europeans and Brits used hyperbole, I just figured they felt strong about their opinions. I didn’t consider my view superior and their’s amusing.

My goodness, the sudden importation of ‘superior’!

Well done, a European says she found American hyperbole amusing and, of course, she’s feeling ‘superior’. Nobody is allowed to find anything about America or the American way of doing things ‘amusing’ without them viewing themselves as ‘superior’!

 

[rlg94086]

My goodness, the sudden importation of ‘superior’!

Well done, a European says she found American hyperbole amusing and, of course, she’s feeling ‘superior’. Nobody is allowed to find anything about America or the American way of doing things ‘amusing’ without them viewing themselves as ‘superior’!

I don’t know if you feel superior or not. I was commenting on my own attitude when discussing things with Europeans. Though I do picture in my head the Queen of England saying “weee are not amused.”

I do find it interesting though, that Europeans are blind to their own arrogance, in general. I had plenty of Europeans tell me how awful my country and president is…in the very start of conversation, once they found out I’m American. How different is that from an American that does the same with a European when they are visiting? That’s why I view my European antagonists as an equal footing. We all have pride as a flaw.

One of the best discussions I had (regarding immigration issues) was with a Dutch coworker in Japan - neutral ground!

 

[Kaninchen]

I don’t know if you feel superior or not. I was commenting on my own attitude when discussing things with Europeans. Though I do picture in my head the Queen of England saying “weee are not amused.”

I just felt different, they knew nothing of my world and I was just learning about theirs.

I do find it interesting though, that Europeans are blind to their own arrogance, in general. I had plenty of Europeans tell me how awful my country and president is…in the very start of conversation, once they found out I’m American. How different is that from an American that does the same with a European when they are visiting? That’s why I view my European antagonists as an equal footing. We all have pride as a flaw.

I suppose that most Europeans think they have a vested interest in what happens in the US, that how Americans vote, for example, has a direct influence on our lives. I think that this attitude is getting terribly ‘old’ and that the psychological, as well as the real, dependence should come to an end.

I think that our interest in American politics should begin and end with the military and international economic policies of the US. That shouldn’t be taken to mean that I’m hostile to those policies, just that Europeans should grow up.

 

[Al_Masetti]

I’ve been involved in these sorts of debates in the past and found that Accuracy in Media was helpful with brochures for the literature table and with providing speakers.

aim.org/

In addition, Freedom House was also very helpful in providing speakers.

freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=1

In both cases, I just called them on the phone, explained what we were trying to do and they really rallied with support.

I was able to visit Freedom House, since they are nearby in New York City but never did get to visit Accuracy in Media because they are in DC.

 

[Al_Masetti]

People have forgotten what Communism is.

That is why the Saul Alinsky discussions are so important.

He may have died a while ago, but his tactics as described in Rules for Radicals are still popular.

We are seeing a resurgence of Communism in Peru and in Venezuela. In rhetoric and action.

Communism represents militant atheism … and it’s just as dangerous now as before … even more so because of its many disguises.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals

amazon.com/Rules-Radicals-Saul-Alinsky/dp/0679721134