Debating with protestants who just won't listen

[MT1926]

This same attitude, Sproul later suggest, is what led to the idea of “separation of Church and state” a worthy American ideal in our constitution today. I thank God every day that the CC does not rule our government from Rome.

Well at least Sprouls is consistent in his ignorance of history.

I got some amazing news for you. God heard your prayers and retroactively applied them for you. If you would read a history book before blindly believing RC Sproul you would have known that…

The phrase “separation of church and state” was initially coined by Baptists striving for religious toleration in Virginia, whose official state religion was then Anglican (Episcopalian). Baptists thought government limitations against religion illegitimate. James Madison and Thomas Jefferson championed their cause.

This was around 1786. Catholics made up about 1% of American citizens at that time. It wasn’t for another 75 years that the Catholic Church became the country’s largest religion. In large part mainly because of “separation of Church and state”.

So now that you know, you can start thanking God everyday that you are not being ruled by the Episcopalians.

 

[guanophore]

I thank God every day that the CC does not rule our government from Rome.

I read this article and I thought of you!

How to Avoid Becoming a Catholic (in 3 Easy Steps)

“Simon Peter answered him, ‘Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life’” (Jn 6.68). “What else is there?” —Walker Percy Every once in a w...

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The Church needs to rule itself, and the faithful who are part of it. Jesus did not establish the Church to run secular governments, but to be light and salt to a dying world.

 

[De_Maria]

No… the first century Church taught it. Did you forget about them.

I’ve never found those teachings. And I’ve searched high and low. Could you point to them? A link, perhaps.

 

[tgGodsway]

Whether others have much to learn about the Church or not, nothing will explain or excuse how you harbor such irrational hatred for Catholicism.

I hear what you say, but let me help you understand better. I don’t hate Catholicism for the sake of Protestantism. I hate all of the lies found in both circles. (Yet you insist that the lies are ONLY in the Protestant circle) This is a huge deception.

I hate lies, deceptions and false beliefs contrary to the word of God. Don’t you? So, for me, it is not about this group or that group. As the Apostle said, “… someone says, ‘I’m with Paul,’ and another says, 'I’m with Apollos,” are you not unspiritual people? v5 What then is Apollos? and what is Paul? They are servants through whom you believed, and each has the role the Lord has given. v6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. v7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters IS ANYTHING, but only God who gives the growth." 1st. Cor. 3:4-7

Check your own heart about protestants before you quickly tell me what is in my heart. Lets treat each other with mutual respect as we go over those things we both cherish dearly: God’s holy word.

 

[tgGodsway]

This is why a source outside of the Scripture is needed. This is the same authority that wrote, preserved, and promulgated those scriptures. It is the same authority that inserted chapters and verse, arranged the order of the books (after determining the table of contents). This is why we call it a Catholic book!

Uh. no… it wasn’t the same authority. Any source quote “outside the scriptures” is a source with the potential to be bias and flawed. Inside the scriptures, is the Spirit of God who impressed upon His Apostolic Church and gospel writers to write flawlessly.

But this is the problem we have today. You want to assume that those around the founders and framers were also inspired like them. But on what bases? When the Apostles died, the epistles took on the role to keep the record straight. This was Luke’s main reason for writing; to keep the record straight. The whole idea of succession is an idea that came outside of the apostolic circle, literally. It was invented by someone outside the circle. Why do I say that? because Paul didn’t teach it, Peter didn’t teach it, Timothy, Titus, didn’t teach it. And even Matthew’s gospel didn’t teach what you say it did in the Mt. 16 metaphor of the keys.

These were ideas that came from outside of the apostolic circle and therefore do not have God’s fingerprint.

 

[guanophore]

Yet you insist that the lies are ONLY in the Protestant circle) This is a huge deception.

It is a deception, or at the very least, a misunderstanding, since I have never asserted any such thing!

Catholics are perfectly capable of telling lies, and have done so.

I hate lies, deceptions and false beliefs contrary to the word of God. Don’t you?

What I see is that you are hateful toward that which seems inconsistent with your own private interpretation of Scripture.

Check your own heart about protestants before you quickly tell me what is in my heart.

Honestly, no one here on a forum can know what is truly in your heart. All we can do is go by what you have written here. Your posts show a pattern of resentment and unforgiveness toward the Roman Catholic Church, apparently from the fourth century until now. I am suggesting that you consider forgiving all those Catholics who seemed to be engendering so much animosity in your heart.

Any source quote “outside the scriptures” is a source with the potential to be bias and flawed.

What you are saying is that, contrary to the Scriptures, what the Apostles delivered to the people was really NOT the unsullied Word of God, but just their opinions?

Inside the scriptures, is the Spirit of God who impressed upon His Apostolic Church and gospel writers to write flawlessly.

Indeed, just as He inspired the Apostles to teach flawlessly, a gift that was passed on to the Church, so that the Teachings could be preserved infallibly.

But this is the problem we have today. You want to assume that those around the founders and framers were also inspired like them.

This is not true, nor is it consistent with the historical record. What I have is faith in the promises of Christ, that He would lead the Church into all Truth, and He would preserve His Word where it has been sent, so that it will accomplish that for which it was sent.

When the Apostles died, the epistles took on the role to keep the record straight.

No, tgG, most of the New Testament had not yet been written when the Apostles died, and most of them never wrote a word. The Word of God was entrusted to the Bishops, who were given the charge to preserve it. Writings cannot take on a role of “keeping it straight”. This is the role of preachers and teachers. It requires intellect. Writings can be interpreted in as many ways as people have belly buttons.

The whole idea of succession is an idea that came outside of the apostolic circle, literally.

It is curious, then, that we can see it written in the New Testament.

 

[guanophore]

It was invented by someone outside the circle. Why do I say that? because Paul didn’t teach it, Peter didn’t teach it, Timothy, Titus, didn’t teach it.

I can understand why you don’t interpret the passages this way. It would throw a complete wrench in your whole construct of God appointed authority.

These were ideas that came from outside of the apostolic circle and therefore do not have God’s fingerprint.

I find it notable that you have appointed yourself the judge of what bears the fingerprint of God. Again, abrogating centuries of apostolic practice that preceded your own fathers in the faith. It is yet another good example of how there are as many interpretations as there are belly buttons!

 

[tgGodsway]

For a tradition to be true, the proof must be in all those legs in order to support its legitimacy.

Which Apostles decided this?

 

[guanophore]

Which Apostles decided this?

All those present at the election of Matthias, for starters, and all those present at the Council of Jerusalem, and every synod convened since that time.

Did you not know, tgG, this is how you got the Bible you keep using to whack us ignorant Catholics over the head?

 

[steve-b]

De_Maria:

No one taught the doctrine of sola scriptura until the advent of Martin Luther.

No… the first century Church taught it. Did you forget about them.

One doesn’t forget what they don’t know nor ever learned.

The Church came before a single word of the NT was written. Then it takes the Church who wrote the scriptures, to define what writings are scripture. The Church never taught sola scriptura

 

[sainteriksrose]

No it didn’t…

The New Testament was not yet determined in the first century. And it was God through the Church He built on Peter the rock Who determined it - but again that was not in the first century.

 

[sainteriksrose]

In Titus 1 we read:

“For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you,”

In 1 Timothy 4 we read:

“Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching. Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate.”

And, from 2 Thessalonians 2:

“Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.” (NAB; emphasis mine)

 

[FloridaAngler]

WHY are they so close-minded and harbor such irrational and frankly ridiculous hatred for the true Church?

Maybe they don’t listen to you because you say things like “WHY are they so close-minded (sic) and harbor such irrational and frankly ridiculous hatred for the true Church?”

Once you’ve made up your mind that Protestants believe what they believe because they’re “close-minded” and “irrational” and “hateful”, and not because they’ve given thoughtful consideration to their beliefs and come to a different conclusion than you, what reason do they have to try to continue to have a conversation with you?

Blame Protestants all you like, but it sounds like you’ve shot yourself in the foot by giving them a good reason not to care to talk to you.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

For a tradition to be true, the proof must be in all those legs in order to support its legitimacy.

Which Apostles decided this?

Jesus. It is one of those pre-existing Traditions upon which the NT is based.

Note how Jesus taught by passing down Tradition and confirming it in Scripture.

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

And then, the Apostles followed His example:

Acts 17:17 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

It is the model that Jesus Christ used, the model the Apostles followed and the Church continues to this day.

 

[tgGodsway]

Well, first off, not all of the Church wrote scripture. Some were privileged to do so. Secondly, whether Matthew, for instance, knew his gospel was the word of God or not, made no difference. It was. All of the N.T. books written was the word of God even before collected into one volume.

Scripture declares to us only ONE source of divine revelation, holy scripture. There is no such thing as sacred tradition. It was an invention that came many years later.

Any tradition Paul spoke of, was with the understanding that it never contradicted holy scripture. And his tradition was never called sacred, implying holy and consecrated. Jesus warned us about the weaknesses of tradition and compared it to holy scripture.

 

[tgGodsway]

What I see is that you are hateful toward that which seems inconsistent with your own private interpretation of Scripture.

What you call private is held by millions of believers around the world. You are in denial of these settled matters.

 

[tgGodsway]

pattern of resentment and unforgiveness toward the Roman Catholic Church, apparently from the fourth century until now. I am suggesting that you consider forgiving all those Catholics who seemed to be engendering so much animosity in your heart.

I came on this forum in response to all of the negative talk about protestants. I did not come on board to bring up these kind of topics. I found this site from a radio station.

You spin these matters in your favor as a tactic to discredit me, but I came on board this site shocked at all that was being said about the rest of the body of Christ. So if I make a comment or disagree with a piece of your theology, all you can do is get on the ban-wagon of “he’s just a hater” To me, it is just a cheap shot for someone who doesn’t like my answers. I have no hatred in my heart toward anyone, as the Lord listens to this conversation now. But I hear a lot of hatred from many on this site calling us heretics, deceivers, false prophets and the like… It is the wrong way to unify. Perhaps a protestant said some bad things to you, I wouldn’t doubt it, some of them are just as bad, but both sides need a rebuke.

So, please keep the spin out of it and lets talk truth verses so-called sacred tradition,.

 

[tgGodsway]

No, tgG, most of the New Testament had not yet been written when the Apostles died, and most of them never wrote a word. The Word of God was entrusted to the Bishops

So… the Apostle Paul who wrote two-thirds of the New Testament really didn’t write it after all?.. are you kidding?

 

[Edward_H]

Perhaps the better approach is “less debate and more friendship”. More beer, more burgers, more tennis.

 

[yankeesouth]

Well first of all there is no debate. Just do your job as Catholics are called to do and proclaim the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church, the Catholic Church. Of course, some might say that only entails ‘living’ your Faith but as in much of Catholicism it is both/and. The apostles weren’t sent out to mingle.