Debating with protestants who just won't listen

[De_Maria]

The particulars in this passage do not address the loss of salvation…

Yes, they do.

but I’ll play along here.

It is impossible for a saved man, if they fall away, to what?.. to renew them again unto REPENTANCE…

Yes. Let’s break that down.

impossible…to renew them

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

why repentance and not eternal life?..

Because repentance is the prerequisite for Baptism.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And Baptism is the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

The context was about potential Jewish converts who were terribly persecuted for their faith. So as a solution, they decided to return to the Jewish rituals and practice of Judaism as a way to escape persecution, seeing that Judaism was a legal practice at the time while Christianity was not.

The context is someone falling away and rejecting Christ after they have received Baptism and all the Sacraments. St. Peter says something similar:

2 Peter 2:20-22King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

So they returned to the types and shadows of the faith while denying the reality of it. Their sin was that they were denying their faith in Jesus Christ to the point that they were crucifying to themselves the son of God and putting Him to an open shame.

Anyone who comes to Jesus Christ and then falls away, is doing the same thing.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d with @tgGodsway

The author basically said, people who have gone this far cannot in of themselves be brought back to repentance. (Of course with God all things are possible.) They will find themselves in a state of un-repentance. Their hearts were hardened to this fact. And of course they will find themselves standing at the judgment seat of Christ to give an account. They denied Christ and thus Christ will deny them.

Agreed. They fell away from salvation.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Do you really think that someone who is a partaker of the Holy Ghost is not a member of the elect? And yet, he can lose his election.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Chapter 10 picks up on the example of chapter 6, where the author said, "And God will judge His people… 10:30. What does any of this have to do with the fact that I’ve been born into the family of God and His spiritual DNA runs through my spiritual veins.

It has to do with St. Paul and St. Peter’s warnings.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Just claiming to be saved, doesn’t make you saved. It is God who saves. And we will all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to find out where we stand in His eyes.

1 Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

I think I said it to you before. Maybe I didn’t. But it stands repeating.

Protestants hope in themselves. They proclaim themselves faithful and declare themselves saved.

Catholics hope in God. We obey His Word and hope that we have done the Father’s will in a manner worthy of His glory. We await His Judgment.

 

[Reuben_J]

Catholics hope in God. We obey His Word and hope that we have done the Father’s will in a manner worthy of His glory. We await His Judgment.

Amen, so will it be.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I think debating anyone who won’t listen is a waste of time.

The only right religion is Catholicism.

Just so I make that clear to everyone on here since I have to lead a lot of accounts for A to B to C, that is Catholicism. Not right-wing evangelicalism, not Islam, not whatever your Facebook friend or colleague in the faculty lounge likes, not atheism, not the Orthodox Church.

No one has been able to refute actual Catholicism. Not Mohammed. Not Martin Luther. Not Dr. King. Not Sam Harris. Not Jordan Peterson. Not Ben Shapiro. Not C.S Lewis.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Catholic is the proper name of the Church Jesus established. It’s been that name of the Church, in writing, since the beginning.

Okay, so that if I were to go back to let’s say, the 1st century apostolic writings I will see this word? Uh… no the Church did not begin around the world, it slowly evangelized and became universal.

You’ve been shown the answer many times already. Denying that doesn’t help you

Acts 9:31
From the Greek Study Bible
Ἡ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς

Translation:
ἐκκλησία = church http://bibleapps.com/greek/1577.htm ,
καθ’ = according to http://bibleapps.com/greek/2596.htm ,
ὅλης = whole http://bibleapps.com/greek/3650.htm ,
τῆς = the http://bibleapps.com/greek/3588.htm , Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…"
= the Kataholos Church = the Catholic Church.

Any doubts on that?

Ignatius of Antioch, was ordained by the apostles, and made bishop of Antioch ~69 a.d. That is before the book of Acts is written. He was also a direct disciple of St John the apostle. Ignatius wrote 6 letters to the Church in 6 locations. In his writings, he is calling the “Church” he’s writing to the Catholic Church.

St Ignatius, uses Christian in (ch 2) and Catholic Church in (ch 8) in his Epistle to the Smyrnæans http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

Also note: He writes, schismatics won’t be going to heaven, in his _Epistle to the Philadelphians (ch 3)_ . http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0108.htm .

Ignatius is passing on what he learned from the apostles.

And you as a Protestant will ask, what apostle wrote about that?

It was Paul

Romans 16:17-20 # SEARCH rom 16

Galatians 5:19-21 # SEARCH gal 5
both quotes use the same Greek word [διχοστασίαι,] for dissension / division /schism [http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm] And the consequence for that sin if one won’t return to the Catholic Church? Paul says “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”. IOW they go to hell when they die

Where did Paul get that warning from?

That condemnation for division came from Jesus who condemns division from His Church John 17:20-23 # SEARCH jn 17 , and since the HS only teaches what comes from Jesus John 16:12-15 Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 16 no one then can say anytime in history, the HS inspired THEM to divide from, or inspired all the dissensions / divisions / schisms we see see today in Christianity, to divide from the Catholic Church.

 

[tgGodsway]

Thanks Steve-b, but it sounds like you think you have a slam dunk here. But you’ve offered no foundational support, again. Ignatius was no authority at the level of the apostolic circle.
The holy Spirit did not choose to use him in that capacity. None of the apostles, or N.T. writers thought of the quote “Catholic” Church in the way you do. The word Catholic is nowhere to be found in the New Testament.

The first century Church certainly wanted to become universal and did for the most part. But let me remind you of the sins of the 4th. century when the Church at Rome strong-armed the rest of the world by forcing submission to their rule. Most of them went along with it over time, some did not. They were totally in the flesh, then, as you are now, to which these verses you offered apply quite nicely.

I am a member of the Universal body of Christ too. You don’t like it because I do not submit to YOUR leadership in Rome. This by itself is a huge work of the flesh on your part. But I do submit to my local leadership and pastor, and ultimately to my Lord and savior Jesus Christ who is the true head of the Church.

I’m not sure what your word study was all about, it proved absolutely nothing. The word Church means “called out” ones… People called out into the public with their faith. This is the way the 1st. Century Church understood it, and the way I believe it today.

blessings to you steve-b

 

[tgGodsway]

Agreed. They fell away from salvation.

No no… we are NOT in agreement they fell away from eternal salvation. Why? the passage does not say that. If you think it does, please point to the exact words you believe mean that.

 

[tgGodsway]

Do you really think that someone who is a partaker of the Holy Ghost is not a member of the elect? And yet, he can lose his election

I do not take the position that they were NOT saved. I believe the author’s example, was one of saved Jewish converts. Actually he gave a potential example and not a real situation. But that is neither here nor there.

 

[tgGodsway]

It has to do with St. Paul and St. Peter’s warnings

No… the author is consistent between chapter 6 to chapter 10. These same potential people of chapter 6 were used again in chapter 10 to "not forsake the assembling of ourselves, AS IS THE MANNER OF SOME, (chp.6) but exhorting one another and so much the more as you see the DAY approaching…
V26… For if we (He includes himself) sin willfully, (as those potential examples in chapter 6) after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL EXPECTION OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION … which will devour the adversaries. The author parallels the consequence of our judgment with the unsaved here, probably to underscore the depth of recourse for their own sins. God will judge HIS own.
But nowhere can I find the concept that these people ceased to be God’s people or that eternal life was relinquished in any way… please point me to the exact words that do say this.

 

[tgGodsway]

Just claiming to be saved, doesn’t make you saved. It is God who saves. And we will all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to find out where we stand in His eyes.

The Judgment seat of Christ is not a judgment for the lost, but the saved.

 

[tgGodsway]

Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

again, the judgment seat of Christ is to judge NOT the sins of the Church, but the good and bad accomplishments while on the earth to determine an inheritance or relinquishment of inheritance = rewards

 

[tgGodsway]

Catholics hope in God. We obey His Word and hope that we have done the Father’s will in a manner worthy of His glory. We await His Judgment

I agree… we will all be judged and hope to be found “faithful” Well done good and faithful servant, enter into the JOY of the Lord.

 

[steve-b]

Thanks Steve-b, but it sounds like you think you have a slam dunk here. But you’ve offered no foundational support, again. Ignatius was no authority at the level of the apostolic circle.

I’ve given you scripture AND Early Church writings from apostolic times properly referenced.You can’t dodge that,

Re: the Protestant revolt back in the 16th century, that action alone by Protestants is condemned in scripture as are those who did it and do it, and continue to keep it going.

Paul’s letter to the Church of Rome, the same Church that is here today, with Pope Francis at the helm, condemns division. The same Church Paul said, the God of peace will soon crush Satan under YOUR feet. ?Whose feet? The Church of Rome. Paul Called those who divide from the Church of Rome EVIL, and they don’t serve our Lord but their own selfish appetites. Why didn’t you open the link?

Re: soon, since God is outside of time, soon doesn’t have the same meaning as we think of as soon, in our terms, but that’ action will happen to Satan and those who divided from the Church. Not my words those are Paul’s words.

Then I showed you Gal 5 which you also didn’t open. Those who divide and remain divided from the only Church the apostles are building, won’t be going to heaven. Not my words they are from Paul.

tgGodsway:

The holy Spirit did not choose to use him in that capacity.

Says who?

tgGodsway:

None of the apostles, or N.T. writers thought of the quote “Catholic” Church in the way you do.

Where’s YOUR references properly referenced?

tgGodsway:

The word Catholic is nowhere to be found in the New Testament.

Either is the specific term Trinity.

However,

I gave you the text from Acts, which is where the name Catholic Church comes from

And

I gave 4 continuous centuries where “Catholic Church” is used in writing, all properly referenced beginning in the 1st century…

tgGodsway:

The first century Church certainly wanted to become universal and did for the most part. But let me remind you of the sins of the 4th. century when the Church at Rome strong-armed the rest of the world by forcing submission to their rule.

Where’s your source

tgGodsway:

Most of them went along with it over time, some did not. They were totally in the flesh,

Schism is condemned in scripture

tgGodsway:

I am a member of the Universal body of Christ too.

You’re not Catholic nor are you “in” the Catholic Church. You are outside the Church by your own free choice.

tgGodsway:

You don’t like it because I do not submit to YOUR leadership in Rome…

you just denied membership in Our Lord’s Church.
Jesus established His Church with His leadership in the 1st century, on Peter and those in union with him.

We’ve been over this before.

 

[tgGodsway]

I’ve given you scripture AND Early Church writings from apostolic times properly referenced.You can’t dodge that,

I’ve not only not dodged it, I am running toward it… Ignatius was NOT of the rank of the Apostles under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Therefore any opinion of his must come under the scrutiny of the Apostolic teaching. Now we are back to my point. The concept of a Catholic Church ruling from Rome, as it is today, was never in the thinking of the apostolic circle, and without any merit scripturally. His opinion or words about being Catholic is not inspired by God’s word.

 

[tgGodsway]

Re: the Protestant revolt back in the 16th century, that action alone by Protestants is condemned in scripture as are those who did it and do it, and continue to keep it going.

Really… remember Steven ( In Acts ) who stood up for speaking the word of God in front of an organized, legitimized, established religious rule. He was stoned to death for his boldness to speak. Remember Paul who was rebuked by the established religious rule because they couldn’t see it the way he saw it. I could go on. Luther saw that the just shall live by faith… and his eyes were open to the fact that he was ALREADY JUSTIFIED, he didn’t have to earn it… This truth was not accepted by the established religious church of his day… if they could they would have killed him too.

 

[tgGodsway]

Paul’s letter to the Church of Rome, the same Church that is here today, with Pope Francis at the helm

Not hardly steve-b … The Church at Rome in Paul’s day was not a Church who demanded the world to submit to it’s authority. That Church kept it’s authority local, the way God intended it and Paul approved it in its time.

But, again, in the 4th. century Rome got top-heavy with pride and power. They demanded and forced the Churches around the world to submit to them. These are not the signs of God’s way of doing things. Luther finally figured it out. The Church is so much grander than Rome.

 

[tgGodsway]

Then I showed you Gal 5 which you also didn’t open. Those who divide and remain divided from the only Church the apostles are building, won’t be going to heaven. Not my words they are from Paul.

Words taken out of context again, steve-b… I know exactly what Galatians 5 has to say and agree with it totally. When you force others to unite with you under the penalty of hell and then turn around and say, “see, you are rebelling against God’s church! …” it is more than manipulation, it is a high sin that grieves the heart of God and needs repentance and mercy. I hope you will consider that.

 

[tgGodsway]

Either is the specific term Trinity.

However,

I gave you the text from Acts, which is where the name Catholic Church comes from

And

I do not understand why you gave me the Acts passage. The word Catholic is not there. … The word Trinity is not there either, but it’s concept is… The concept of a universal Church ruled by a bishop in Rome is not only not there, it flies against everything that is there. God’s Church is ruled from heaven as a theocracy, not from Rome. Christ is seated at the right hand of God ruling his Church. This is the concept taught in scripture.

 

[tgGodsway]

You’re not Catholic nor are you “in” the Catholic Church. You are outside the Church by your own free choice

again … nothing but judgment and condemnation from you. … you know nothing about me or my affiliation. But I answer to someone higher than you, and have no fear to answer. My devotion is to my Lord and savior Jesus Christ. All you can do is pass judgment on me and others based on your limited understanding. I offer you no judgment. I leave those things to Christ my king.

 

[guanophore]

Why?.. it’s not like you have copy rights on the word Catholic. You guys include this word in every other sentence, so that we all know you are universal. But guess what! We too (Evangelicals, reformed, Methodist, Baptist, ect. …) are universal, therefore, we are Catholic.

We consider all those who have received valid Trinitarian Baptism to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

It is curious why someone who so strongly embraces anti-Catholic beliefs would WANT to identify themselves as Catholic!

Protestants want the ability to choose and decipher exactly what they believe and interpret scripture in they way they think it best. Often the idea of a earthly and living spiritual authority is something they are against because they have bought into sola scriptura (which again gives them the power to be the ultimate authority on what scripture means defining it as they wish).

This is the “birth right” of all those who espouse SS. The fruit of rejecting authority appointed outside themselves is continual division and separation. There were only a few main denominations at the beginning of the Reformation, but multiplication continues to occur.

how the early church was, and accept that at face value without studying early church history

It is amazing how many evangelicals ignore the history of the faith. Many very faithful and passionate persons, desirous to live a life of holiness and purity before God, but know very little of their own family history.

this statement is laughable. the “fullness of the truth?!” Nothing could be further from the truth. I consider the CC to be one of the weakest links in a very large chain of Christian perspective. But I can assure you, I’m being very generous in comparison to others in my ranks who see you the way you see us.

One has to wonder what brings you to a Catholic Answers Forum, tgG. Clearly you have a great disdain for our faith. It seems clear that you believe we have no “answers” to offer you that you don’t already have, so what is the point?

No matter how you spin it, you are in a system of good works yet to be tallied up. The concept of a free gift fades.

It seems that you have a warped perception of the Catholic faith. And in fact, I would venture that you also expect your good works to be “tallied” at the judgment.