Debating with protestants who just won't listen

[GaryM]

To the OP. Great thread and you ask a question that I think many struggle with including myself. Sometimes it’s like banging your head into a wall.

I highly recommend a book called “The Seven Deadly Sins of Apologetics” avoiding common pitfalls when explaining and defending the faith by Mark Brumley. I’m reading it for the scond time. The book addresses the limits on the role of apologetics, that not everything can be broken down into sound logical arguments; the different methods of apologetics; the role of intellect and faith; and the dangers of apologetics among other things. It’s a short read but full of insight and wisdom!

 

[tgGodsway]

One has to wonder what brings you to a Catholic Answers Forum, tgG. Clearly you have a great disdain for our faith. It seems clear that you believe we have no “answers” to offer you that you don’t already have, so what is the point?

I actually came on this site out of curiosity from a Catholic radio station I stumbled across one day. When I got on the site I literally was shocked at what I was reading from the post.

I had no idea so many Catholics saw protestants as heretical and dangerous as is portrayed. I was naïve to these facts. This has never been my experience within my own circle towards Catholics, so why is it so here?

I know there are huge differences in theology, but I never experienced it on the front lines like this forum. My goodness you’ve got whole categories dealing with the ills of Protestantism and all the nasty comments to boot.

I was raised in the Catholic Church as a young boy but eventually left it not so much because I was dismayed or had grievances. I had none. I left it because the Lord led me somewhere else. It was that simple. I have no regrets. The steps of a righteous man are ordered of the Lord. But my original experiences at Holy Rosary Catholic Church set the stage for so much more in my view.

But how can I make a difference in this ONE universal Church yet between two divides? … I don’t know, but I do my best.

Who will show others who are convinced their angle is the only angle? Who will show the many different angles to the same centerpiece?

I contribute my part.

 

[tgGodsway]

So why did Ignatius, a first century bishop, ordained by the apostles, direct disciple of John, say that the Church of Rome holds the presidency? Ignatius BTW, is from Antioch in Syria.

I don’t know if he actually said that but there is one thing I do know, the apostle John has never said it. and It was John was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

 

[GaryM]

Please don’t allow uncharitable comments by some members of this forum to paint a negative light on the rest of the Catholic faithful. I think we can have intelligent debate and argument without the name calling and labels. We’re all called to love God and neighbor, even those neighbors we disagree with. While there are doctrinal differences, I don’t believe the majority of Catholics pay much attention to apologetics or are even aware of this forum.

 

[Reuben_J]

It is a fallacy to think that Catholics are good polite people. Like everybody else, they are just people. Some can speak well which is nice to hear, others not so. This applies to everybody - Catholics and Protestants alike.

If we want to avoid bad comments, probably it is better not to comment at all but just post facts and information. Unfortunately, everybody has an opinion on some topics. Some people are more diplomatic and would not say them while some people are more frank. Others would be just impolite, while others troll and provoke.

People can meet Joe Catholics in the church or mass, they would probably not be very impressive, maybe slightly better considering that would be participating in the sacraments and hoping that the sacraments remind them of who and what they are and why.

The truth, however, needs to be said; and sometimes they can be quite ugly, depending on which sides you are.

I think putting a premise on Catholics would not serve any purpose, but explaining Catholicism is.

The old Forum format was modulated. It was not uncommon that sone posters were banned, both Catholics and Protestants alike. That speaks volume on how people communicate.

 

[tgGodsway]

that is refreshing, thank you.

 

[tgGodsway]

It is a fallacy to think that Catholics are good polite people. Like everybody else, they are just people. Some can speak well which is nice to hear, others not so. This applies to everybody - Catholics and Protestants alike.

I agree. theology and politics are the two war-zone topics. But that is to be expected.

 

[GaryM]

It is a fallacy to think that Catholics are good polite people.

And your evidence to support such a bold claim would be what?

I think putting a premise on Catholics would not serve any purpose

Isn’t that what you did with your first statement?

While it can be difficult and unavoidable at times, we should strive for what it says in 1 Pet 3:15 “Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence, 16 and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.”

I miss the old forum format!

 

[guanophore]

“Then the churches THROUGHTOUT ALL… all what?.. all Judea, Galilee and Samaria had peace and were edified.”

The Greek here translated “the Church throughout all” is ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης
“kath holos” is the first time we see these words used as a modifier for the Church founded by Christ. By the end of the first century, “Catholic” had become a proper noun to describe this church, founded by Christ that was “throughout all”.

. But Acts 9:31 or any other passage doesn’t make the Church local, from Rome, and yet universal.

Well, we read it differently. For Catholics, Jesus only founded One Church, which He intended to spread throughout the world. He appointed those He desired to shepherd and guide HIs Church so that it was both local, and universal.

Your inability to acknowledge that this was God’s plan does not nullify it.

Can you imagine what it would look like if you met the pope face to face and knelt down to kiss his ring?.. and then he too knelt down to kiss your ring? …

Certainly. This is why he signs his letters 'servant of the servants of God".

I had no idea so many Catholics saw protestants as heretical and dangerous as is portrayed. I was naïve to these facts. This has never been my experience within my own circle towards Catholics, so why is it so here?

I think there are a lot of reasons for this. The main one is that many Catholics are not well catechized, and have a deficient understanding of what the Church teaches. Second, I think the fact that it is an apologetics site leads people to be contentious and argumentative, which is also not consistent with Apostolic teaching.

I was raised in the Catholic Church as a young boy but eventually left it not so much because I was dismayed or had grievances. I had none. I left it because the Lord led me somewhere else. It was that simple. I have no regrets. The steps of a righteous man are ordered of the Lord.

I must confess I had the same experience.

I don’t know if he actually said that but there is one thing I do know, the apostle John has never said it. and It was John was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

We really can’t know this. There is so much of what was taught that was not recorded, it may be that the Apostle did teach this to Ignatius.

 

[Reuben_J]

Please don’t allow uncharitable comments by some members of this forum to paint a negative light on the rest of the Catholic faithful. While there are doctrinal differences, I don’t believe the majority of Catholics pay much attention to apologetics or are even aware of this forum.

What about the rest of Catholic faithful?

 

[Glark]

You hit the nail on the head, Annette - since Satan is the father of lies, he will devote a LOT of his efforts to spreading lies about the one, true Church.

 

[Glark]

For many years I have been asking Protestants this question: Why were Jesus’ very first words to Simon, “Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas (“rock”), which is interpreted Peter.” (John 1:42)? I have never received an answer.

 

[GaryM]

That was simply my response to TgGodsway statement “so many” as in not all of us.
“I had no idea so many Catholics saw protestants as heretical and dangerous as is portrayed”

I don’t believe “so many” Catholics see Protestants as heretical or dangerous. An exception perhaps and not the rule. Of course there are some who may believe that and may very well have a basis for making such a claim, especially against extreme forms of Protestantism, such the Hebrew Roots Movement, as an example. I think they are heretical and extreme! But I don’t believe “so many” as in the world population of Catholic faithful see Protestants (mainline and extreme versions) as heretical and dangerous. Too broad of statement IMHO.

 

[guanophore]

For many years I have been asking Protestants this question: Why were Jesus’ very first words to Simon, “Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas (“rock”), which is interpreted Peter.” (John 1:42)? I have never received an answer.

They will say 1) The “rock” is Peter’s faith, which we should all have in Christ, and that is the foundation of the Church. 2) The Rock is Christ, and He was referring to Himself as the Rock upon which the church is built. 3) Peter is really only a “pebble”, and we are all equally pebbles.

 

[tgGodsway]

The Greek here translated “the Church throughout all” is ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης

“kath holos” is the first time we see these words used as a modifier for the Church founded by Christ.

This is not a problem, yes the word Church is used both as a noun but originally as a verb. I agree. But The word Catholic, meaning universal, did not originate from the apostolic circle. The problem is not this word, it is the meaning poured into the word, especially over time. By the 4th. Century when the church began to flex her perceived authority over other local churches and beyond, it drifted away from the intent of the Apostolic new testament. She forced her rule on others. This is not Gods way of doing things.

 

[tgGodsway]

Yeah this was debated for two months on this site just 5 months ago. If I address it here it will re-launch it.

 

[TheButler]

Does the C of E have a centralized authority?

Yes. The Queen followed by the Archbishop of Canterbury followed by the Bishops and the Synod.

 

[TheButler]

I admit that I just considered you are one of those non-denom Christians. You sounded like a smart one dissenting with my post. My observation with different Christian groups is that we often talk passing each other, a similarity I saw in your reply.

I love honest discussion where there is sincere acknowledgment of each other idea. I understand and acceot differences, where they exist. I find arguing for the sake of it is childish, which is the issue brought up in this thread.

Your plucking the Biblical passage looks like a google search which did not address my post at all. Unfortunately, that is often my experience with Bible thumping Protestants. It seems they love throwing Biblical verses at Bible ignorant Catholics like as if they want to intimidate us.

I do do not use Bible verse much in discussion because one can wrongly use a verse to support or rebut one’s point without taking the whole Bible message in a context.

My aoplogy for assuming for which you are not. The new format of the Forum does not indicate one’s religion at a glance but I am not blaming that, rather the common snag in internet discussion.

Thanks for the last sentence. I take that as a compliment and encouragement for my belief. I would like to reciprocate - and you too as well, whatever your belief/religion is.

God bless.

What a wonderful response. Thank you on many levels. Next time we meet I will bear in mind what you’ve said about your preferences and do my best to accommodate.

 

[guanophore]

The word Catholic, meaning universal, did not originate from the apostolic circle.

So you are saying that the book of Acts is not rooted in the “Apostolic Circle?” When the Holy Spirit led Luke to use the words kath holos to describe the universal church, Luke was going against the Apostolic Circle?

Yes, even by the end of the 1st century meaning was poured into it. A person was either part of the Catholic Church (that founded by Christ) or was a heretic, or other outsider.

Authority began to be exercised with the Apostles, even before the first council of Jerusalem around 50 AD. Paul teaches his successors, the Bishops, to teach and govern with all authority. Ignatius reflects this authority when he writes his letters on the way to Rome.

It is the duty of the Church to preserve the once for all divine deposit of faith. This must be done passionately.

She forced her rule on others. This is not Gods way of doing things.

The Church determines doctrine and practices for her members. Those who are members of HIs One Body, the Church, are to be obedient to the authority appointed by Christ. no one can be forced to believe one way or the other, but there must be clarity about who has departed from the doctrines of the faith.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Isn’t that what Acts 9:31 said?

the church throughout all ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς

steve-b I’m not sure what you are trying to get at here with this Acts 9:31 passage. You lifted it out of its context very conveniently. the verse says, … “Then the churches THROUGHTOUT ALL… all what?.. all Judea, Galilee and Samaria had peace and were edified.”

Re: Acts 9:31

1. it’s NOT churches
   It’s Church= ἐκκλησία = http://bibleapps.com/greek/1577.htm
2. Luke who writes Acts, is identifying the Church around him in all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria, a good size area. It is the Catholic Church, which is in union with Peter and his successors, by definition.
3. and they are at peace, as in everything, they are together with each other as one.

That’s what according to the whole means. They are universally one

As I said in the following

As in Everyone throughout all is to agree with THIS Church, as in universal agreement… according to the whole, complete universal accord.

tgGodsway:

You are dreaming my friend. This has to be the hardest sell ever…

Even when you’re shown where you’re wrong you stubbornly hold to your error(s).

When Ignatius, bishop of Antioch Syria, disciple of St John, when he wrote epistles / letters to the Church, he wrote to 6 locations. Like Luke in Acts when he referred to the Church in 3 locations, Ignatius is also writing to the Catholic Church in another region he chooses to address.

• Epistle to the Ephesians
• Epistle to the Magnesians
• Epistle to the Trallians
• Epistle to the Romans
• Epistle to the Philadelphians
• Epistle to the Smyrnæans

BTW, Ignatius writes, Rome holds the presidency. Why? Because all know, it is the chair of Peter. It was also Peter’s burial place. As was its Paul’s as well.

tgGodsway:

Listen, I don’t have a problem with the word Catholic. You are right, the Church is suppose to be Catholic, universal. But Acts 9:31 or any other passage doesn’t make the Church local, from Rome, and yet universal. No passage talks about one city Church ruling all the Churches of the world. There is no concept or idea of this nature anywhere in inspired scripture. Therefore it wasn’t God’s idea.

I know you won’t read this. I give it for all those who are reading this thread, and WILL read this link http://catholicism.org/st-peter-and-church-unity.html