Debating with protestants who just won't listen

[tgGodsway]

Scripture says otherwise. Matt 7:21-23; Matt 25:31-46;

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

I’m not sure what you are trying to say with these (above) verses. But none of them deal specifically with the judgment seat of Christ. Let’s not get confused about the judgment of nations, it is not synonymous with the Judgment Seat of Christ. None of the other verses you used contradict what I have stated.

 

[tgGodsway]

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

This passage is typically miss represented here. The context is very narrow. Paul is addressing the Jews who believed justification came only by keeping the Law. Paul argues that if you (Jews) want to seek justification that way, you must actually keep the whole law. “For it is not the hearers of the law who are RIGHTEOUS before God, BUT THE DOERS of the Law WHO WILL BE JUSTIFIED.” Ro. 2:13.

This statement is true, but WHO QUALIFIES to keep the whole Law? … NO ONE!!!. … this was the thrust of Paul’s argument.

This is why he could conclude later in the larger context, by saying, "But now the righteousness of God has been manifested APART from the Law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it. v22 the righteousness of God through FAITH in Jesus Christ for all who BELIEVE.
Ro. 3:21,22

verse 23,24, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, v24 and are justified by his grace AS A GIFT, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

My point is, you have used the Ro. 2:6 passage out of it’s context.

 

[Cathoholic]

tgGodsway (about Catholic theology with bold mine):

.

Your eternal salvation is on a probationary status pending the outcome of your good works. . . .

.

tgGodsway. I’m floored you are still here saying such error. I’ve shown you many times with many quotes to back it up, that this is a false straw-man.

WHY do you continue to falsify the Catholic religion (then attack THAT bogus straw man)?

I’ve explicitly repeatedly shown you the difference between grace works (God working in and through you) as opposed to the “your good works” motif.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with Catholic theology.

But I have a BIG PROBLEM when you come on here and mischaracterize my Catholic faith.

 

[tgGodsway]

That’s the explanation of Purgatory. How do you explain the fact that it depicts, a saved person, suffering in the after life?

We cannot impose an idea from the outside without warrant. Purgatory is not mentioned or taught here or anywhere in the N.T. Therefore we can conclude it was NOT the Holy Spirit’s idea.
But the timing here is very clear… “each one’s work will become MANIFEST for the DAY will disclose it…” 3:13

The DAY… is a specific reference to the coming of the Lord. The judgment seat of Christ is to be held at the coming of the Lord sometime after the rapture of God’s remnant Church during the tribulation period.

But the metaphor goes on. This DAY will disclose it, because it will be revealed by FIRE…" Question: Is that literal hell fire?.. or is Paul still in a metaphor and fire is used to speak of a refining process?.. If anyone (in Christ) builds on the foundation that has already been laid,… and he builds upon it with GOLD, meaning that his works are reflected by the finest and purest substance, Gold. … Silver… Precious stones. all of these are lesser than Gold but nonetheless valuable. If he built on the foundation with GOLD, he will gain much.

Then there is wood, a substance that will burn up when fire is applied. Again, we are still in a metaphor and the wood isn’t real, and neither is the fire. Paul is driving home a point here. If your works are reflected in terms of wood, then it will all be consumed by the metaphorical fire and will amount to nothing more than a pile of ashes. And ash will be all that remains for eternity for this particular person.

Hey and straw are all similar substances that will burn even quicker than wood. But the point is clear… we will be evaluated and judged according to works.

Notice the contrast in verse 14, If the work that anyone has built on (the foundation) survives he will receive a REWARD. v15 If anyone’s work is burned up he will suffer loss…" Was Paul using this word “suffer” here to mean suffering in hell fire? … no … no… we are still in a metaphor. This person will suffer it terms of loss of reward, YET he himself will be delivered from this judgment as through fire.

Then Paul goes for the jugular in the next verse dealing specifically with the Corinthian problems. "Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?.. If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will DESTROY him. All true…
The judgment seat of Christ is called the terror of the Lord in the book of Hebrews for a reason… not everyone gets a prize… some get anguish.
But the good news is that at some point, God will wipe away all our tears…

 

[tgGodsway]

You sound convinced. Thanks for being honest

De_Maria… you are not the first person on this site that I have shared my salvation beliefs with. I have gone over these things with several people. But of course, because it is too free for them, then the easy way to deal with it is simply to say, “well, he’s a heretic anyway we don’t need to take him serious.”

 

[tgGodsway]

That contradicts the Word of God.

You quoted 2nd. Thess. 1:6. I’m not sure why… You may want to read it in it’s context. What are you trying to say here?

 

[tgGodsway]

Even those who are under grace, may sin unto death.

Agreed. A sinning believer will surely die if he refuses to deal with his sin issue.

 

[tgGodsway]

please explain in detail. If I have not represented the Catholic view correctly I will apologize.

It is a faith with the evidence of works which will be judged at the end at the judgment seat and for those worthy they will be eternally justified. Is that right?

Please correct me.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

CCC#2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

I noticed you bolded the human part, rather than the “moved by the Holy Spirit” part. This is what confuses protestants, who think Catholics believe that we “can merit for ourselves” apart from the HS moving us to do so . The merits emanate from the same grace that saves us.

You confuse Protestants your way. I’ll confuse them in mine.

I hope we can at least agree to disagree.

We don’t disagree, De Maria.

So far, we disagree on what you claim is pelagianism, semipelagianism, unmerited and merited grace and several other things. So, yes, we do.

Saving faith is never “alone”. Saving faith is always accompanied by the fruit of the Spirit that was unmerited.

[/QUOTE]
Only the first grace is unmerited. Didn’t you just read it in the CCC I provided? Here it is again.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

Do you disagree with that Teaching?

I am just saying that the term “addition” or the construction “plus” is confusing for Protestants and it is easy for them to misunderstand how Catholics understand salvation using this construct.

[/QUOTE]
You seem to be under the impression that there is a perfect way to say things to people, and that somehow, you are the only one who knows this fantastic thing. But I don’t see people converting at your feet. They seem as confused by you as they are by me.

Let me let you in on a little secret. No matter how clearly you think you’ve said it, someone will misunderstand what you said.

Look, I came here to debate with Protestants. But, if you want me to debate with you, I will do so.

Let me know.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Even those who are under grace, may sin unto death.

Agreed. A sinning believer will surely die if he refuses to deal with his sin issue.

A believer who denies Christ is a sinning believer. How is he saved?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

I was merely using tgGodsway’s terminology.

Indeed yes. The problem is that tgG thinks that Catholics believe we can earn salvation by good works…

The bigger part of the problem is that I’m trying to concentrate on what tgG says and you keep derailing me with your unwanted advice.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

You sound convinced. Thanks for being honest

De_Maria… you are not the first person on this site that I have shared my salvation beliefs with. I have gone over these things with several people. But of course, because it is too free for them, then the easy way to deal with it is simply to say, “well, he’s a heretic anyway we don’t need to take him serious.”

I’ve been at this for close to twenty years. Possibly over twenty years, now. I realize that we talk past each other and get heated and say things we shouldn’t.

I for one, take you seriously.

My entire goal is to set out your beliefs and set out my beliefs, side by side. Then to compare them to Scripture. Not to change your mind, necessarily. That would be a bonus. But to change the mind of those who come to this forum to seek answers and to make those comparisons. But perhaps are too shy or insecure to say anything.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

I was merely using tgGodsway’s terminology.

Indeed yes. The problem is that tgG thinks that Catholics believe we can earn salvation by good works. He believes we practice a “works based salvation” that has it’s origin in human beings “meriting salvation” by doing good works.

Neither he nor I believe that one can earn their way into heaven.

I know that. The point I am making is that he believes that you believe you can!

I find it quite annoying to continually quibble about terminology when I think I have had a history with a person and have gotten to know his way of speaking and thinking.

OK. But I note that he has not budged off his confiction that you are part of a works based system.

It isn’t over til the fat lady sings.

Sooo, what’s the problem?

misperceptions by those who have been indoctrinated in the belief that Catholics do not believe we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man boast.

It’s a matter of your perception and you applying unrealistic standards that don’t exist to a simple discussion on the internet.

Let me ask you, where is the rule that says that tgG should say any particular thing to me, by now? I’ll tell you where, in your head.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Scripture says otherwise. Matt 7:21-23; Matt 25:31-46;

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

I’m not sure what you are trying to say with these (above) verses. But none of them deal specifically with the judgment seat of Christ. Let’s not get confused about the judgment of nations, it is not synonymous with the Judgment Seat of Christ. None of the other verses you used contradict what I have stated.

Didn’t you claim that Christ would not judge to condemnation? But the Father appointed all judgment to Christ. Not just those unto salvation.

 

[steve-b]

Newman’s defense of infant baptism does not at all support a view that somehow baptism teaches a children or infuses knowledge, nor does the Church teach that it infuses knowledge, Infant baptism is not a “coming to the truth” nor does it give the mind or soul any ability to discern truth from falsehood or true doctrine from false doctrine.

I am NOT talking about infused knowledge, as if baptism all of a sudden makes one a theological genius. Baptism makes one a new creation. It also imparts awareness and a desire to receiving the truth.

Re:Baptism from the CCC
683 “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit.” “God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!”’ This knowledge of faith is possible only in the Holy Spirit: to be in touch with Christ, we must first have been touched by the Holy Spirit. He comes to meet us and kindles faith in us. By virtue of our Baptism, the first sacrament of the faith, the Holy Spirit in the Church communicates to us, intimately and personally, the life that originates in the Father and is offered to us in the Son.

Baptism gives us the grace of new birth in God the Father, through his Son, in the Holy Spirit. For those who bear God’s Spirit are led to the Word, that is, to the Son, and the Son presents them to the Father, and the Father confers incorruptibility on them. And it is impossible to see God’s Son without the Spirit, and no one can approach the Father without the Son, for the knowledge of the Father is the Son, and the knowledge of God’s Son is obtained through the Holy Spirit."

THAT is why, the Church emphasizes “post baptismal” action.

Newman had a LOT to say about baptism and its action on the soul.
Baltmoreson:

And if a child is taught mistaken doctrines and his parents and relatives are all Protestants and he grows up with no favorable views of the Catholic Church, or even if he grows up with favorable views of Catholic friends but thinks them mistaken, it is not “obstinacy” to refuse to believe; or if someone received poor Catholic teaching, and believed it to be fundamental Catholicism, and converted, he would not be obstinate in refusing to believe orthodox Catholic doctrine or the arguments given for it. The person has to learn or acquire faith in orthodox Catholic teaching and then repudiate it with full knowledge of its truth and then be indifferent to his obligation to hold it and not to teach another faith – that is obstinacy.

Truth always breaks through. Baptism is working in that soul to persue truth. The HS is working through the sacrament. That is why the Church makes a distinction in an individual AFTER they have been validly baptized vs one who has NOT been baptized

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

This passage is typically miss represented here. The context is very narrow. Paul is addressing the Jews who believed justification came only by keeping the Law.

Well, I guess I have to ask you, where does the passage single out Jews who believe justification came only by keeping the Law? Is he not in the Gentile province of Rome?

He actually singles out people who judge others, whether they be Jew or Gentile. And he says that God is the true judge.

Paul argues that if you (Jews)

Where?

want to seek justification that way, you must actually keep the whole law. “For it is not the hearers of the law who are RIGHTEOUS before God, BUT THE DOERS of the Law WHO WILL BE JUSTIFIED.” Ro. 2:13.

You discarded v. 6-12. Why?

This statement is true, but WHO QUALIFIES to keep the whole Law? … NO ONE!!!. … this was the thrust of Paul’s argument.

Apparently, someone does, because those who do, are they who are justified by God. If you believe the Scripture.

This is why he could conclude later in the larger context, by saying, "But now the righteousness of God has been manifested APART from the Law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it. v22 the righteousness of God through FAITH in Jesus Christ for all who BELIEVE.
Ro. 3:21,22

Right. Which simply means through the Sacraments (FAITH in Jesus Christ).

verse 23,24, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, v24 and are justified by his grace AS A GIFT, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

I think someone else pointed out that the Sacraments are gifts of Jesus Christ. FREE gifts. Jesus Christ did not have to establish them for us.

My point is, you have used the Ro. 2:6 passage out of it’s context.

Of course, I disagree, and see it the other way round.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

That’s the explanation of Purgatory. How do you explain the fact that it depicts, a saved person, suffering in the after life?

We cannot impose an idea from the outside without warrant. Purgatory is not mentioned or taught here or anywhere in the N.T.

But you’ve described a place where, what were the words you used, “unfortunate” believers were chastised or cleansed by fire. That is pretty darn close to Purgatory.

Apparently, you object that we’ve named it and you haven’t.

Therefore we can conclude it was NOT the Holy Spirit’s idea.

[/QUOTE]
You lost me on that, who said it was or was not the Holy Spirit’s idea?

But the timing here is very clear… “each one’s work will become MANIFEST for the DAY will disclose it…” 3:13

The DAY… is a specific reference to the coming of the Lord. The judgment seat of Christ is to be held at the coming of the Lord sometime after the rapture of God’s remnant Church during the tribulation period.

You have a very specific set of details there. The Catholic Church does not define when the process of Purgation will take place. It is, in fact, a process that takes place, outside of time.

edit: My bad. Actually, the process begins the moment we are incarnated in the womb. This life is part of the purgation process. And for most of us, doesn’t end until we are purified by God, in Purgatory.

But the metaphor goes on. This DAY will disclose it, because it will be revealed by FIRE…" Question: Is that literal hell fire?.. or is Paul still in a metaphor and fire is used to speak of a refining process?.. If anyone (in Christ) builds on the foundation that has already been laid,… and he builds upon it with GOLD, meaning that his works are reflected by the finest and purest substance, Gold. … Silver… Precious stones. all of these are lesser than Gold but nonetheless valuable. If he built on the foundation with GOLD, he will gain much.

Has it ever occurred to you that our God is a consuming fire?

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d with @tgGodsway

Then there is wood, a substance that will burn up when fire is applied. Again, we are still in a metaphor and the wood isn’t real, and neither is the fire. Paul is driving home a point here. If your works are reflected in terms of wood, then it will all be consumed by the metaphorical fire and will amount to nothing more than a pile of ashes. And ash will be all that remains for eternity for this particular person.

Well, we see these as imperfect works. Works marred with sin. And God, the consuming fire, destroys them.

Hey and straw are all similar substances that will burn even quicker than wood. But the point is clear… we will be evaluated and judged according to works.

Notice the contrast in verse 14, If the work that anyone has built on (the foundation) survives he will receive a REWARD. v15 If anyone’s work is burned up he will suffer loss…" Was Paul using this word “suffer” here to mean suffering in hell fire? … no … no… we are still in a metaphor. This person will suffer it terms of loss of reward, YET he himself will be delivered from this judgment as through fire.

Read the last three words. As through fire. Perhaps because I worked with fire on a daily basis, I can tell you, that being delivered “as through fire”, means suffering. Very painful suffering.

Then Paul goes for the jugular in the next verse dealing specifically with the Corinthian problems. "Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?.. If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will DESTROY him. All true…
The judgment seat of Christ is called the terror of the Lord in the book of Hebrews for a reason… not everyone gets a prize… some get anguish.
But the good news is that at some point, God will wipe away all our tears…

[/QUOTE]
No. Not all. God will DESTROY some. These people were temples of God’s Spirit. But they destroyed the Temple. And God destroyed them. They lost their salvation.

 

[steve-b]

please explain in detail. If I have not represented the Catholic view correctly I will apologize.

It is a faith with the evidence of works which will be judged at the end at the judgment seat and for those worthy they will be eternally justified. Is that right?

Please correct me.

Isn’t this your view, please open the link Questions about when people get "saved" - #71 by tgGodsway Seems you’re opposed to good works playing any part in the discussion. Am I misreading you?

I will just say this.

Jesus is talking here. Mt25:31-46 RSVCE - The Judgment of the Nations - “When - Bible Gateway
What basis are they being judged by Jesus? Those on the left address Jesus as Lord! That indicates a type of faith. So after that why are they condemned? They had a said faith, they called Him Lord, but what where they missing? What did they NOT do?

Good works were NOT there.

 

[tgGodsway]

A believer who denies Christ is a sinning believer. How is he saved?

Everyone denies Christ to some degree. Everyone denies Christ through a lack of obedience to some degree or another, whether it be a little white lie or a huge scandalous one. Whether it be a small attitude of laziness or a big attitude effecting others. If Christ calls me to do XY & Z and I choose not to do it, then I have denied Him what he wanted. I have, in that sense, rejected Him and His will, I have failed to live the way He has asked of me.
If He says, “speak my name in the town square to all the people” and I choose not to do it, I have denied Him, to which He will deny me. What will He deny me? all that He intended me to have in terms of reward and inheritance.

The word deny in Matthew’s gospel is also the English word reject. If I reject Him, He will reject me. But let’s not mix words here.

The word deny found in Matthew 10:33 for instance, is unfairly meant to mean DISOWN. But the Greek word there (Matthew 10:33) only mean deny or reject. “If you DENY Me before Men, I will DENY you…”

Six chapters later in Matt. 16:24 at the call of a disciple, Matthew used a different Greek word there, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must DENY (=aparneomai=disown utterly) himself, take up his cross…” Our English translations translates both passages with the same English word-deny. But the meaning is not the same.

Nowhere at the judgment seat is the concept of disowning. Any man found there was already saved eternally before he arrived. His presence there is NOT for the purpose of deciding whether or not he will remain in the family of God, or whether he really was a member of the family of God in the first place. There is no “pending” justification found at the judgment seat.

But unless you get your brain wrapped around these basic ideas about the judgment found only in scripture, it is hard to let go of traditions that have no biblical root such as Purgatory.