Debating with protestants who just won't listen

[tgGodsway]

My entire goal is to set out your beliefs and set out my beliefs, side by side. Then to compare them to Scripture. Not to change your mind, necessarily. That would be a bonus. But to change the mind of those who come to this forum to seek answers and to make those comparisons. But perhaps are too shy or insecure to say anything.

I appreciate your sentiment. Thank you.

 

[tgGodsway]

Didn’t you claim that Christ would not judge to condemnation? But the Father appointed all judgment to Christ. Not just those unto salvation.

He will not judge US. to eternal condemnation. He said no one can pluck us out of His hand. If he does condemn us, it would have to be for the inefficiency of the cross alone, seeing that the efficiency of the cross is what purchased our GIFT of eternal life.

If Christ work on the cross did not cover us, then Christ would have no choice but to condemn us.

 

[steve-b]

A Catholic who practices the Eucharist, with all of it’s implications, will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ, based on their own understanding of it in contrast with what scripture actually teaches about it.

Re: Judgement seat of Christ, You said you WERE Catholic but left the Catholic Church for Protestantism. Meaning, you left Jesus body blood soul and Divinity, for Protestantism.

tgGodsway:

It isn’t about how correct your doctrine is, it is more about “believing** Jesus is the Christ**” This belief has it’s eternal rewards.

If one says they believe, Jesus is the Christ, but don’t do what He says, what good is “saying” they believe?

 

[tgGodsway]

This is confusing. If you must “see it” to enter it, and you can only “see it” after youare born again, then how is entering it not a synonym for eternal life?

What is the Kingdom of God?.. The following questions must be asked first: Does the bible use this term interchangeably with eternal life, or heaven? You go and study that… You will find no connection whatsoever. If you think you’ve got one, bring it up.

So then, what is the kingdom of God?.. After collecting all of the passages dealing with the kingdom of God you may realize that the Kingdom of God is simply God’s way of doing things.

We know that it is a kingdom that one day will be here literally and physically, but today, it is here only spiritually. This is why Jesus said to the Pharisees, “… you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces, for you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.” Mt. 23:13.

I would suggest Jesus was NOT talking about eternal life here. He was talking about how God does things. The Pharisees who were suppose to show the people how God works, fell short. They were keeping God’s people from what does work; from God’s way of doing things.

People born of the Spirit can see God’s way of doing things and may choose to enter the narrow way. But being born again itself does not guarantee entrance, sometimes there are things blocking the entrance as in the case of the Pharisees.

Secondly, entering the kingdom is not the same thing as inheriting it. To inherit it, is to take up ownership of it. Blessed are the poor for they shall inherit the earth. Jesus was talking about a ruler-ship of the earth itself, literally. But one must first enter the kingdom before he can position himself to own it. Inheriting the kingdom of God is by good works.

 

[tgGodsway]

Re: Judgement seat of Christ, You said you WERE Catholic but left the Catholic Church for Protestantism. Meaning, you left Jesus body blood soul and Divinity, for Protestantism

I did not leave the Catholic Church for Protestantism. I am living-one stone baptized into ONE holy and apostolic Church, to which Christ is the head. My affiliation here on the earth is of a reformed view. I do not know of too many today protesting Catholics. As far as my circle goes, the protest has been over for years. But that is beside the point.

To address your comments: it is impossible for me to “leave” Jesus body and blood soul and divinity as you put it. Why impossible? because I am a living-stone sealed in the Holy Spirit of God. Christ blood has covered me and God has declared me JUST based on the finished work of Christ alone on the cross. I am a member of Christ body and called out into the public as a representative of His Church. It’s that simple.

 

[guanophore]

So that, for now, your justification is “pending” a final slam of the gavel. Your eternal salvation is on a probationary status pending the outcome of your good works.

Well, we see it differently. You have been taught to think of this as “probationary”, consistent with Calvin’s perspective as an attorney before he became a theologian. It is not about God as judge, and the gavel. For Catholics, justification is about being in right relationship with God. We are placed into right relationship with Him at baptism. While this sacrament makes an eternal mark upon our souls, we are still free to depart from the grace it imparts. We call this falling away from grace. If we return to that state of grace during the course of this life, we can be restored to a right relationship again with Him.

We have also received the teaching of the Apostles that human life is eternal from the moment it is created. At the time our body dies, we will face either an eternity in fellowship with our Creator, or eternal separation from HIm.

Paul is addressing the Jews who believed justification came only by keeping the Law.

I think you are confused about the reference, tgG. This letter is addressed to the Romans, and the passage is addressing how God judges the eternal state of a person by how well each person follows his conscience. Those without the law (non-Jews.

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile…

I would think you would be delighted about this verse about the basis for eternal judgment, since it contains the word “eternal”. Thus it cannot be confused with temporal judgment.

"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested APART from the Law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it. v22 the righteousness of God through FAITH in Jesus Christ for all who BELIEVE.

Ro. 3:21,22

Indeed, but this does not negate the previous chapter, which specifically states humans will be judged by their deeds.

you have used the Ro. 2:6 passage out of it’s context.

It is important for you to cling to this, so that you can dismiss it. Otherwise, it contradicts the entire theory of salvation!

Remember, the book of Romans was written by a Catholic, to Catholics, about the Catholic faith. Catholicism is it’s context.

 

[guanophore]

WHY do you continue to falsify the Catholic religion (then attack THAT bogus straw man)?

If tgG were to accept that what he has been taught about the Catholic faith is erroneous, he might end up having to become Catholic, and such a thought is too mind boggling! It is much simplier to set up a straw man.

Purgatory is not mentioned or taught here or anywhere in the N.T.

Well,we read it differently, don’t we?

Therefore we can conclude it was NOT the Holy Spirit’s idea.

Or we can conclude it is not Calvin’s idea?

Hey and straw are all similar substances that will burn even quicker than wood. But the point is clear… we will be evaluated and judged according to works.

I think you missed an important part of the “point”, tgG. There is a purgation, a purification as if by fire, where all that is unfit for heaven is separated from the believer. This is purgatory, or the state of purification where we are purged from any attachment to sin and imperfection. Nothing unclean can enter heaven. You believe in purgatory also, you just don’t call it that.

If anyone’s work is burned up he will suffer loss…" Was Paul using this word “suffer” here to mean suffering in hell fire? … no … no… we are still in a metaphor. This person will suffer it terms of loss of reward, YET he himself will be delivered from this judgment as through fire.

Have you ever worked very hard on something and had a hard time being separated from it? One suffers when their attachment to an investment is taken from them. The process of being purged from unholy attachments is painful to the human soul.

But of course, because it is too free for them, then the easy way to deal with it is simply to say, “well, he’s a heretic anyway we don’t need to take him serious.”

You may wish to believe that we reject your ideas of salvation because “it is too free”, but the fact is, we reject them because they are a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. There is too much scripture that must be ignored or danced around to make the concepts fit.

Matthew used a different Greek word there

Actually, Matthew wrote in Aramaic.

 

[guanophore]

Nowhere at the judgment seat is the concept of disowning. Any man found there was already saved eternally before he arrived. His presence there is NOT for the purpose of deciding whether or not he will remain in the family of God, or whether he really was a member of the family of God in the first place. There is no “pending” justification found at the judgment seat.

An adopted child can run away from the family, and choose not to remain in the household. That does not make them unadopted. It just makes them outside saving faith.

But unless you get your brain wrapped around these basic ideas about the judgment found only in scripture, it is hard to let go of traditions that have no biblical root such as Purgatory.

It is true that the Teachings of the Apostles were given in full to the Church before a word of the NT was ever written. For this reason, Catholics do not extract the faith from the Scriptures. Instead, we see the faith that was delivered to us reflected in the Scriptures. That being said, of course we can see purgatory in the scriptures! you do not see it because you did not receive the once for all divine deposit of faith that is infallibly protected by the Holy Spirit in the Church.

What is the Kingdom of God?.. The following questions must be asked first: Does the bible use this term interchangeably with eternal life, or heaven? You go and study that… You will find no connection whatsoever. If you think you’ve got one, bring it up.

We read it differently, don’t we? For Catholics, our entrance into the Kingdom begins at baptism, when we are joined to Christ, and are submitted to His Kingship.

After collecting all of the passages dealing with the kingdom of God you may realize that the Kingdom of God is simply God’s way of doing things.

Are you suggesting that this has nothing to do with eternal life? Have you forgotten why Jesus became man?

We know that it is a kingdom that one day will be here literally and physically, but today, it is here only spiritually. This is why Jesus said to the Pharisees, “… you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces, for you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.” Mt. 23:13.

We understand this differently, tgG. Catholics believe that Jesus came to bring the Kingdom to us, literally, physically, and spiritually. He wants us to live in the Truth that the Kingdom is within and among us. When we walk in His Kingship, we experience, in this temporal life, the Kingdom.

 

[guanophore]

I would suggest Jesus was NOT talking about eternal life here. He was talking about how God does things.

This sounds so nonsense to me. As if “the way God does things” is not related to eternal life? God wants us to have life within us, abundant life NOW, and in the life to come. They are not separated from each other!

But being born again itself does not guarantee entrance,

Ok, I see now why you need to separate the Kingdom of God from eternal life. You must do this to preserve the Once Saved Always Saved petal of the TULIP!

Secondly, entering the kingdom is not the same thing as inheriting it. To inherit it, is to take up ownership of it. Blessed are the poor for they shall inherit the earth. Jesus was talking about a ruler-ship of the earth itself, literally. But one must first enter the kingdom before he can position himself to own it. Inheriting the kingdom of God is by good works.

Yes, we are in agreement on this point. Just because a person is baptized, justified, and
adopted by God does not mean they will inherit eternal life.

I do not know of too many today protesting Catholics. As far as my circle goes, the protest has been over for years.

This seems a bit disingenuous, since you have clearly made statements of a protesting nature.

called out into the public as a representative of His Church

You have been given a very odd explanation for the term ekklesia

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Re: Judgement seat of Christ, You said you WERE Catholic but left the Catholic Church for Protestantism. Meaning, you left Jesus body blood soul and Divinity, for Protestantism

I did not leave the Catholic Church for Protestantism. I am living-one stone baptized into ONE holy and apostolic Church, to which Christ is the head. My affiliation here on the earth is of a reformed view.

Remember saying the following?

“I am Catholic in terms of my Church network, but protestant in terms of my theology**.” Debating with protestants who just won't listen - #95 by tgGodsway

IOW, you’re Protestant. Just admit it. You try and hijack Catholic, but to no avail.

You are “Reformed” IOW you follow Calvin, a Protestant and his sect of Protestantism.

tgGodsway:

I do not know of too many today protesting Catholics. As far as my circle goes, the protest has been over for years. But that is beside the point.

The movement you joined is Protestant. It began by dissenting from, dividing from, in the 16th century, the Catholic Church. THAT action as you’ve been shown multiple times already, was condemned in scripture, as are those who do it, and keep that action going.

tgGodsway:

To address your comments: it is impossible for me to “leave” Jesus body and blood soul and divinity as you put it.

Nonsense. the disciples in Jn 6:66 who followed Jesus for awhile, they left Him. There is no valid Eucharist in Protestantism, no matter the stripe. Therefore you left Jesus.

tgGodsway:

Why impossible? because I am a living-stone sealed in the Holy Spirit of God. Christ blood has covered me and God has declared me JUST based on the finished work of Christ alone on the cross. I am a member of Christ body and called out into the public as a representative of His Church. It’s that simple.

You won’t read this following link, I know that already. You don’t open my links. I post this for those who read this forum and will open the link. What could be done to most improve Sunday Mass attendance? - #253 by steve-b

THAT link describes what you did when you left the Catholic Church. No more Eucharist for you. And the consequences are dire, because you were educated in the truth as a Catholic and you left. But you won’t open the link to see the scriptures being spoken of, so you will keep on repeating your errors rather than learn from scripture you say is your sole source of truth.

And Jesus did NOT influence Calvin to leave the Catholic Church, the Church HE established Himself. Jesus doesn’t contradict Himself

 

[AnnetteJoan]

Claiming to be Catholic, but believing some protestant beliefs?

Isn’t that akin to the Jansenist heresy?

 

[TheButler]

Are Anglicans and C of E, the same thing?

As far as I am aware, yes they are.

 

[GKMotley]

All Church of England is Anglican. Not all Anglicans are Church of England. Consider Anglican as the genus, national or other jurisdictions as the species. The Episcopal Church in the US is Anglican. It is not Church of England. The Anglican Church in North America is Anglican. It is not Church of England. The Anglican Church of Canada is Anglican. It is not Church of England. The Anglican Church in America is Anglican. It is not Church of England.

The pattern follows. What is Church of England is the Church of England. Which is Anglican.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

A believer who denies Christ is a sinning believer. How is he saved?

Everyone denies Christ to some degree. Everyone denies Christ through a lack of obedience to some degree or another, whether it be a little white lie or a huge scandalous one.

Good point. I want to ask you something that has always been confusing to me. Many Protestants deny that huge scandalous sins are greater afronts to God than little white lies. They claim that all sins are the same.

They deny the idea of the existence of a mortal sin.

Where do you stand on that?

Whether it be a small attitude of laziness or a big attitude effecting others. If Christ calls me to do XY & Z and I choose not to do it, then I have denied Him what he wanted.

Agreed.

I have, in that sense, rejected Him and His will, I have failed to live the way He has asked of me.
If He says, “speak my name in the town square to all the people” and I choose not to do it, I have denied Him, to which He will deny me. What will He deny me? all that He intended me to have in terms of reward and inheritance.

Ok.

The word deny in Matthew’s gospel is also the English word reject. If I reject Him, He will reject me. But let’s not mix words here.

The word deny found in Matthew 10:33 for instance, is unfairly meant to mean DISOWN. But the Greek word there (Matthew 10:33) only mean deny or reject. “If you DENY Me before Men, I will DENY you…”

Except that both deny and reject can mean disown, depending upon the context in which they are used. And the context in this verse is clearly, disown.

Six chapters later in Matt. 16:24 at the call of a disciple, Matthew used a different Greek word there, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must DENY (=aparneomai=disown utterly) himself, take up his cross…” Our English translations translates both passages with the same English word-deny. But the meaning is not the same.

Nowhere at the judgment seat is the concept of disowning. Any man found there was already saved eternally before he arrived.

Please read Matt 25:31-46. That, all happens at the judgment seat.

His presence there is NOT for the purpose of deciding whether or not he will remain in the family of God, or whether he really was a member of the family of God in the first place. There is no “pending” justification found at the judgment seat.

As I said, read Matt 25:31-46 the sheep and the goats.

But unless you get your brain wrapped around these basic ideas about the judgment found only in scripture, it is hard to let go of traditions that have no biblical root such as Purgatory.

First, Matt 25:31-46 disproves everything you just said.
Second, you didn’t explain why you describe some people as unfortunate believers who are passed through fire and yet deny the existence of Purgatory. As you have, yet again.

 

[De_Maria]

All Church of England is Anglican. Not all Anglicans are Church of England. Consider Anglican as the species, national or other jurisdictions as the species. The Episcopal Church in the US is Anglican. It is not Church of England. The Anglican Church in North America is Anglican. It is not Church of England. The Anglican Church of Canada is Anglican. It is not Church of England. The Anglican Church in America is Anglican. It is not Church of England.

The pattern follows. What is Church of England is the Church of England. Which is Anglican.

Then, to whom do the non-C of E Anglicans submit, the Queen?

 

[GKMotley]

No. The Queen is the supreme governor of the CoE. Not of anyone else. And no one submits to her, in the sense you seem to mean. She is the figurehead, not a Pope analogue. Neither is the Archbishop of Canterbury. Other Anglicans have various polities,usually some sort of jurisdictional Primate. The Episcopal Church has a Presiding Bishop, who has been expanding the office, of late years.

You will recall that I’ve mentioned that Anglicans are, as you remember, motley, and hard to get into one basket. They are all episcopal in polity, but none have a Pope analogue. It’s hierarchical to the diocese level, and more democratic above that. Synods, General Conventions, such like stuff.

Mostly.

 

[tgGodsway]

Good point. I want to ask you something that has always been confusing to me. Many Protestants deny that huge scandalous sins are greater afronts to God than little white lies. They claim that all sins are the same.

They deny the idea of the existence of a mortal sin.

Well it depends on what you are actually talking about. Sin is all the same in terms of what it will produce; death. All sin produces death whether it is small or larger in my view. But the Christian deals specifically with sin’s power which will lead to physical death if not governed. Sin’s penalty has been quenched by Christ at the cross. So, in actuality the sins that we sin have no penalty on them, only power over our mortal bodies if we do not learn how to “die” to the flesh and live after the Spirit.

But again, that power can destroy temporally without mercy if unchecked.

 

[tgGodsway]

We call this falling away from grace. If we return to that state of grace during the course of this life, we can be restored to a right relationship again with Him.

How does one fall away from grace?

 

[tgGodsway]

Read the last three words. As through fire. Perhaps because I worked with fire on a daily basis, I can tell you, that being delivered “as through fire”, means suffering. Very painful suffering.

Not if you are Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. They walked though the fire unharmed by its flame. Read the story in Daniel. But again, Paul is speaking in a metaphor,… there is no literal fire here. It is an object lesson to teach a higher revelation.

 

[tgGodsway]

They lost their salvation

Would you please point me to those exact words, because I don’t remember seeing that. This is the problem so many times. People read in-to the passage their bias.

Agreed, disobedient believers will suffer loss because of their unwillingness to surrender to the Lordship of Christ. Destruction is surely their plot in life. But on an eternal bases, seeing that eternal life was received as a free gift, they pass through the fires even though all of their wood, hey and stubble has burned up.
A gracious and merciful God spared them with a generous offer to eternal life by receiving Christ as savior.

This is the good news that you were denied in your circle.