Debating with protestants who just won't listen

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

But the trend is reversing. I have been speaking to Protestants for over twenty years. I can see the difference in the attitudes. The biggest and most rabid anti-Catholic forum out there, CARM, has moved Catholicism from the cults and sects section to the Orthodox/Heterodox section. Protestants no longer try to prove that Sola Scriptura is even in Scripture.

I will agree with you on this point. Many protestant Churches have drifted away from their founders, into what I would call apostasy and a forsaking of the word of God. Many of them have ordained homosexual ministers and teach forms of witchcraft in their Sunday schools classes. Some of the main-line denominations are in big trouble and need prayer.

My loyalty is not with these groups or any group. My loyalty is to the word of God first and to those who share this principle. God will disciple these denominations if He chooses, but our focus is to be salt and light in this dark world. This is the command by our savior to His church.

The problem is, all those guys you denounce, say they are doing the same as you.

But you are all doing the same thing. Being loyal to your own understanding. You can’t seem to see that objective truth which is independent of you and exists outside of you.

 

[tgGodsway]

There was a time that Protestants would accost Catholics and you’ve seen it, you were probably one of those. And the Catholic was overwhelmed and didn’t know how to respond. But now, Protestant beware, Catholics are going door to door to challenge your views

I think you’ve got a competition complex De_Maria. Maybe you are aware of some group of protestants zealously protesting Rome. it is not within my circle. The word itself is rarely used in most churches. And unfortunately most quote “protestants” cannot tell you why they protested. A new generation of people have been born into the world without this understanding and they don’t care.

Most of our culture today doesn’t care about this at least in the USA. And as time goes on and the world gets darker, Catholic v’s Protestant will not mean anything to anyone. But the spirit of anti-Christ is alive and well working through our school systems and universities shaping our kids thinking to pagan ways. We’re too busy fighting over Luther’s reform. The devil has done a good job of distraction.

 

[guanophore]

Legitimacy is not discerned by quote “correct doctrine,” it is discerned as Christ stated, by our “love for one another.” Jn.13:35.

On the contrary, this is one of the main signs of Love. Love of Christ means that we follow all that he taught. We are also warned by the Apostles to avoid those who depart from the One Faith.

3If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain." I Tim 6

“Warn a divisive person (heretic) once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.” Titus 3

“Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.” 2 john 1

It certainly appears that departure from the doctrines taught by the Aposltes are a point of unity, and that those in the Church are not to associate with those who embrace “different doctrine”.

What adds to this weight of so called unity and authority is the seal of God’s approval given firstly to the Apostle Peter. This whole “Peter” perspective, in my view, is one of your weakest links in the chain of the Catholic perspective.

What is it about a visible sign of unity in the Church that is a “weak link”?

In actuality there are more protestors voicing their view coming from you guys than who comes from us.

This is a sad fact. It seems that the majority of American Catholics have actually become Protestants and they don’t even know it!

those who demand to be in charge

Surely you don’t see Peter as such a person!

 

[tgGodsway]

But Catholics have a set of Doctrines which are inflexible. There is no dispute allowed on these. For example, the Eucharist

A person of any given denomination will ascend only as high as the denomination’s founder. If a founder saw certain truths or perceived truths from scripture and able to gather and grow a following to the size of what we would call a denomination, the founder becomes the ceiling. John Wesley, Luther, Calvin, etc.

Anyone who seeks truth of God’s word without loyalty to their organization itself, is not limited by what the founder could see or understand. He can outgrow the founder’s perspective. He can build upon the foundation with Gold, Silver and precious stones, as the Apostle Paul put it.

God’s truth found only in scripture is not limited by any one human’s acceptance of it. He can outgrow his affiliation as so many have.

But in the C. Church the freedom to explore the truth is limited to the theological ceilings already provided by the many church councils. For you it wasn’t necessarily one or two people deciding doctrine, it was a collection of many people spread out over time who have measured out just how high the ceiling of understanding will be and then tagged it with a threat to keep others from learning more than them, it became bondage.

The Holy Spirit is our ultimate teacher and not man. You know this from reading 1st. John. The anointing has no ceiling. The church universal is not limited by such human efforts to carry God’s truth.

Jesus said, You shall KNOW the truth and the truth shall set you free. He said this in the midst of all that the Pharisees taught.

 

[guanophore]

I love apologetics. That’s why what you are doing with it appalls me.

@DeMaria has this hostile, bristly, and defensive response to everyone who offers feedback. He does not want any reflection back on his method. He has his own strange idea about the gentleness and kindness Peter instructed when doing apologetics.

He might even qualify for having the “single minded agenda” referenced in the forum guidelines.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

The “exact words”? I’ll do that when you can point me to the words, “sola Scriptura”, exactly.

No, I would be satisfied with words that even come close. sola scriptura is not a verse of scripture but a concept.

A concept which isn’t in Scripture. More accurately, a concept which contradicts Scripture.

Please, if you don’t mind, define the concept of Sola Scriptura for us and show us where to find it in Scripture.

 

[De_Maria]

I think you’ve got a competition complex De_Maria. Maybe you are aware of some group of protestants zealously protesting Rome. it is not within my circle. The word itself is rarely used in most churches. And unfortunately most quote “protestants” cannot tell you why they protested. A new generation of people have been born into the world without this understanding and they don’t care.

Most of our culture today doesn’t care about this at least in the USA. And as time goes on and the world gets darker, Catholic v’s Protestant will not mean anything to anyone. But the spirit of anti-Christ is alive and well working through our school systems and universities shaping our kids thinking to pagan ways. We’re too busy fighting over Luther’s reform. The devil has done a good job of distraction.

I’m glad you feel that way tgG. The Scripture says:

Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

But Catholics have a set of Doctrines which are inflexible. There is no dispute allowed on these. For example, the Eucharist

A person of any given denomination will ascend only as high as the denomination’s founder. If a founder saw certain truths or perceived truths from scripture and able to gather and grow a following to the size of what we would call a denomination, the founder becomes the ceiling. John Wesley, Luther, Calvin, etc.

Anyone who seeks truth of God’s word without loyalty to their organization itself, is not limited by what the founder could see or understand. He can outgrow the founder’s perspective. He can build upon the foundation with Gold, Silver and precious stones, as the Apostle Paul put it.

God’s truth found only in scripture is not limited by any one human’s acceptance of it. He can outgrow his affiliation as so many have.

But in the C. Church the freedom to explore the truth is limited to the theological ceilings already provided by the many church councils. For you it wasn’t necessarily one or two people deciding doctrine, it was a collection of many people spread out over time who have measured out just how high the ceiling of understanding will be and then tagged it with a threat to keep others from learning more than them, it became bondage.

The Holy Spirit is our ultimate teacher and not man. You know this from reading 1st. John. The anointing has no ceiling. The church universal is not limited by such human efforts to carry God’s truth.

Jesus said, You shall KNOW the truth and the truth shall set you free. He said this in the midst of all that the Pharisees taught.

The problem with that is that you separate Christ and His Church, as though they were two separate entities. But we are not. We are one with Christ. Therefore, loyalty to the Catholic Church is loyalty to Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

As for ascending to any level. It is Protestants who are concerned about that. We are only concerned with pleasing God. We do not claim any absolute assurance of salvation or ascension. We claim only what God gives us when He gives it to us.

All you do is compare how you talk about what you interpret and you understand. Whereas, we talk about what the Church Teaches and what Christ passed down.

 

[De_Maria]

NotMyOwn:

I love apologetics. That’s why what you are doing with it appalls me.

@DeMaria has this hostile, bristly, and defensive response to everyone who offers feedback. He does not want any reflection back on his method. He has his own strange idea about the gentleness and kindness Peter instructed when doing apologetics.

He might even qualify for having the “single minded agenda” referenced in the forum guidelines.

If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. This is an apologetics forum.

Boasting about being saved Non-Catholic Religions

I understand your point, but a lot of people don’t go walking around thinking “How can I explain my theology to the convenience of Catholics.” I mean, they don’t mean to be inconvenient, but how are we supposed to know what will and will not confuse Catholics? An additional thought I have about this from my own experience. Groups can use the same terminology but mean different things by it. I have commented on threads where I was quite clear about my beliefs (sometimes it gets to the point whe…

That post, written by someone else, merely says that we each have our own styles. You don’t like my style. I get it. But you don’t run the show.

and if you have a complaint. Complain. Who’s stopping you? I think I’m doing everything well within the rules. I’ll let the chips fall where they may.

 

[guanophore]

No, I would be satisfied with words that even come close. sola scriptura is not a verse of scripture but a concept.

A concept that is not found in Scripture, unless certain verses are separated from other verses.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

The Apostles taught that enlightenment (being born again) was a pre-requisite to receiveing the Eucharist (tasting of the heavenly gift). No one can be a partaker of the Holy Ghost unless they have been born again. So these persons have believed unto salvation, then fallen from grace.

sola scriptura is not a verse of scripture but a concept.

An extrabiblical concept. When I was in seminary it was taught as a “doctrine” of the faith, and our hermeneutics textbook referred to it as a doctrine. In the last few decades this has changed. It has been called a “concept”, “principle’ and a 'practice”. What I notice is that it is still treated like a “doctrine”.

It is also ironic that those who adhere to SS do not seem to have a problem espousing an extrabiblical “concept” while in turn demanding that Catholics produce “exact words”.

the amount of years has nothing to do with a bad interpretation accept that it is a shame that it has gone this long

I thiink you are saying that Jesus was too weak or disinterested to guide his church for 1500 years. He sure did abandon his promises quickly!

The CC is wrong about it.

Certainly according to Calvin this is true. Calvin, and all those espousng the TULIP must dismiss 1500 years of theology so that no “true believer” can fall from grace, and fail to be united with the inheritance kept imperishale for them in heaven. A lot of scripture twisting has to accompany this denial, including the very words of the Apostles.

Sola scriptura was a response to the belief that “tradition” had become equal in authority to scripture.

I believe this is very accurate. Although the Apostles taught they were equal, the Reformers had to find a way to jettison the perspective of interpreting the Scriptures through the faith that produced them, so that a new and different interpretation of the faith could be made. SS provided this. By separating the Scriptures from that faith perspective, a new one could be substittued. In fact, many many new perspectives could be substituted.

“So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” 1 Thess 2;:15

Sacred Tradition never “replaced” the Scripures. Both are equal strands of the once for all divine deposit of faith that the Apostles commanded us to preserve. The reformers, in creating and practicing SS, disregarded this command.

 

[guanophore]

But in the C. Church the freedom to explore the truth is limited to the theological ceilings already provided by the many church councils.

This is true. It is the duty of the Church to protect the flock from going astray. These boundaries prevent us from wandering awy from the One Faith.

Anyone who seeks truth of God’s word without loyalty to their organization itself, is not limited by what the founder could see or understand. He can outgrow the founder’s perspective. He can build upon the foundation

This is also true. If we abandon the Church founded by Christ, and strike out on our own, we are very likely to wander away from the Founder’s perspective. We will end up trying to buld our own foundation, rather than the one laid by Christ. This is just human nature, and He knows how we are.

For you it wasn’t necessarily one or two people deciding doctrine, it was a collection of many people spread out over time who have measured out just how high the ceiling of understanding will be and then tagged it with a threat to keep others from learning more than them, it became bondage.

The freedom in which man was created has always had limites. tgG. In the Garden, God placed limits. After the Fall, there were more limits. He gives us boundaries to preserve our own well being.

It may seem to you that the Church has only been led by 'a collection of men", but we receive Jesus promise that He would lead the Chruch into “all Truth”, and would never abandon us to our own devices. The councils made decisions moved by the Holy Spirit.

Abandoning the way of Life does carry consequences (consider the Epistle of Jude). These are not “threats” but warnings to preserve Christ’s life within us. The threat is jumping off the Ark.

Jesus said, You shall KNOW the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Indeed! And to stay free, we need to remain within safe boundaries. We need to not stray from the shepherd, and be in unity with the flock. Sheep that wander off on their own to “explore” generally are eaten by a wolf.

 

[guanophore]

some group of protestants zealously protesting Rome. it is not within my circle.

I don’t know about yoru “circle” but you are most definitely carrying on quite a protest here. Perhaps you don’t realize how vigorously you carry the banner of the Reformers? I just responded to several of these in my last post. If you think your protests are any different than the original Reformers you are mistaken.

A new generation of people have been born into the world without this understanding and they don’t care.

You don’t seem to be one of them. You seem to have quite a lot of strong feelings about the actions of the Church, and their consequences. You even perceive the concilar pronouncements as a “threat”!

We’re too busy fighting over Luther’s reform.

It appears that you have invested a great deal of this particular “busy” on CAF. If it were not important to point out how 'the catholic church got it wrong" then why invest all that energy? No, I think you are carrying forward the protesting work of the Reformers.

 

[NotMyOwn]

Brothers, sisters… I’ve been gone a while, and I still won’t be able to get on again for a long while. I have gotten some email notifications from this forum… It may have been a while back, but I saw some less than gracious discussion going on, citing something I said… which was taken out of context. I realized that I could not undo what I said by mistake, and so I did not do anything to cover up my failure and mistake, but it was not my intent for what I said to be used to stir up conflict and contention here. For that I am sincerely sorry

The only heat that ought to be going on in the kitchen of this forum ought to be constrained to cooking up delightful ways of constructively engaging with one another and with those not yet in our glorious unity in Christ. This heat should in no wise be used to ‘burn’ one another. Ultimately, we’re one Body in Christ, grilling one another is like grilling your own body parts… Let’s not be doing any of that on here. Because, Protestant or Catholic, direct or nuanced, I think we can all agree that that is just messed up.

 

[NotMyOwn]

Regarding Purgatory, it can without trouble be understood as the judgement that we will all stand after death. Those who have already sorted many matters out with the judge don’t have to wait as long to get in.

I personally feel no personal need to dismantle sola Scriptura. It is in nowise taught within Scripture and can therefore on account of its own principle be disregarded without difficulty. The man of God can be complete for every good work through the Scriptures, but only if he does the Scriptures… if he applies the method and teachings of Scripture, God will make sure that the Christian is adequately equipped for the purpose for which He intends him or her.

 

[guanophore]

Regarding Purgatory, it can without trouble be understood as the judgement that we will all stand after death. Those who have already sorted many matters out with the judge don’t have to wait as long to get in.

Yes and no. Those who are purged have already been found worthy to enter, they just need to be separated from any remaining attachments to sin. They are already “saved” but must pass through the purifcation. Those who die without being in a state of friendship with God (fallen from grace or rejecting His mercy) have already been judged and condemned.

 

[NotMyOwn]

It can be said either way, I’d postulate. The reason they need to sort it out with the judge… who is a doctor… well, more like a psychotherapist of the soul is… well, healing… The judge is one of health, not only of legal matters… apparently one of the Greek words for salvation in the New Testament (not Soteria) has a dual meaning… the other being healing.

 

[Darryl_B]

Ah yes, my friend, I am familiar with our Catholic definition of heretic, but maybe just maybe we have a word missing from our language which expresses how I would describe my protestant self. Ignorant is a word we would call bliss, but I wouldn’t necessarily excuse my pre-Catholic self from such responsibility, maybe a mashed word to express it, ignoretic.

 

[NotMyOwn]

Misread what you said. I really need to stop doing that… Alas, it’s late.

 

[Darryl_B]

No problem my friend, to misread is human, and I value your enthusiasm, (and your deleted post).

 

[tgGodsway]

The problem with that is that you separate Christ and His Church, as though they were two separate entities. But we are not. We are one with Christ. Therefore, loyalty to the Catholic Church is loyalty to Christ.

Shall we go over those scriptures again of how the “Church” needed to be encouraged to go the right way. Why? because there was the temptation to go the wrong way.

These kind of admonishments are all over the N.T. But you speak as if the “true” Church can never go the wrong way. Therefore you insolate yourself from any evaluation. But Paul didn’t believe that.

His 1st. Century church was prone to drift, and Paul and others fought to keep the Church in the truth. Just because you, or your organized Church, are stones in the building of God does not mean you are exempt from the possibility of false doctrine, or the temptations to go the wrong way. Receive the words of the Apostle Paul who said,

“I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ to a different gospel…”

If this could happen to Paul’s Church plant, and if it can happen to the Lutheran so and so Church, and if it could happen to any other protestant organization, but CANNOT happen to the CC, you have become the weakest link even though you think of yourselves as the strongest.

Consider the rebuke to the Laodicean Church, “For you say 'I am rich, have prospered and I need nothing,…” Rev. 3

Also Rev. 2:26 “And he who overcomes and keeps My works until the end to him I will give power over the nations.”
but not every Church member will have power over the nations. Not every believer will rule and reign with Christ. Only those who keep His Word and works to the end and overcomes the evils of this world. So the N.T. categorizes successful believers from unsuccessful believers.

You said…

“loyalty to the Catholic church is loyalty to Christ.”

this is foolishness. The N.T. Church didn’t believe this. why do you?

Loyalty to Christ and His word is true Loyalty! despite what the Church may drift into. You need to start using the word Church as a verb (the called out ones) instead of a noun (the hierarchy of organized whatever…)