Debating with protestants who just won't listen

[tgGodsway]

An extrabiblical concept. When I was in seminary it was taught as a “doctrine” of the faith, and our hermeneutics textbook referred to it as a doctrine. In the last few decades this has changed. It has been called a “concept”, “principle’ and a 'practice”. What I notice is that it is still treated like a “doctrine”.

Oh my goodness… it begins with a concept. What is the concept? … that divine revelation comes ONLY through inspired scripture. That divine revelation does not come from any other source.

The CC argues from silence on these points. Here’s what I mean. We both know the passage that says, "all scripture is inspired by God and profitable for doctrine, for reproof… etc. "

Yes, we all know this and we all agree! Isn’t that wonderful?

But you want me to produce a scripture which says, tradition is NOT divinely inspired. Therefore, if we cannot produce that, you can then add it to the list of inspirational sources.

This is exactly what happened in the CC a Church, with a council where the Cardinals and the Pope exalted tradition to be of equal authority with scripture.

I cannot produce a verse that says exactly what you want. But I can produce a passage where Jesus warned about the weaknesses of tradition, implying that it is not on equal par with inspired scripture and NEVER called the WORD OF GOD. Here’s one for you, YOU cannot produce a scripture teaching that tradition is on equal par with the word of God.

Sola scriptura was Luther’s way of saying, only the bible is inspired and NOT the CC as a mouthpiece with their oral traditions and papacy decrees.

Today, when the pope decrees a matter on his St. Peter’s chair, it is as if scripture is being written with every word. It is believed to be totally equal with the apostle Paul and others. But that is absolute heresy and the CC must repent of such a notion. Luther was right about it.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

The problem with that is that you separate Christ and His Church, as though they were two separate entities. But we are not. We are one with Christ. Therefore, loyalty to the Catholic Church is loyalty to Christ.

Shall we go over those scriptures again of how the “Church” needed to be encouraged to go the right way.

You’re conflating two different meanings of the word, “Church”. My response should bring this out.

Shall we go over those scriptures again of how the “Church” needed to be encouraged to go the right way.

First, let’s ask the question precisely as it should be asked in order to avoid confusion.

Shall we go over the scriptures again of how the Church hierarchy, which we call the Magisterium, needed to encourage the Church laity, to go the right way?

Why? because there was the temptation to go the wrong way.

Sure.

These kind of admonishments are all over the N.T. But you speak as if the “true” Church can never go the wrong way. Therefore you insolate yourself from any evaluation. But Paul didn’t believe that.

On the contrary, the problem is that you don’t understand the Grand Commission to which Jesus Christ appointed the Church.

The Church makes disciples of the world. That means that the Church takes people out of the world and makes them part of the body of Christ. Thus the Church makes the Church grow, by the grace of God, of course.

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

His 1st. Century church was prone to drift, and Paul

St. Paul is a member of the hierarchy of the Church. As such, he represents the Church.

and others fought to keep the Church in the truth.

Yep. The Teaching hierarchy kept the Church from drifting.

Just because you, or your organized Church, are stones in the building of God does not mean you are exempt from the possibility of false doctrine, or the temptations to go the wrong way.

Not I. But the Teaching Church, certainly. God said so.

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d with tgGodsway

Receive the words of the Apostle Paul who said,

“I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ to a different gospel…”

Yes. The Church hierarchy is admonishing the laity for their waywardness. That is as it should be and has been and will be until Jesus comes back on the clouds.

If this could happen to Paul’s Church plant, and if it can happen to the Lutheran so and so Church, and if it could happen to any other protestant organization, but CANNOT happen to the CC, you have become the weakest link even though you think of yourselves as the strongest.

The difference between St. Paul’s Church and the Lutheran, is that St. Paul’s Church is the infallible Catholic Church. The Church which Luther repudiated. And therefore, his church has no part in Christ’s.

Consider the rebuke to the Laodicean Church, “For you say 'I am rich, have prospered and I need nothing,…” Rev. 3

Tradition tells us that those 7 churches were members of St. John’s diocese. Thus, St. John was receiving messages about the condition of his churches while he was in exile.

Also Rev. 2:26 “And he who overcomes and keeps My works until the end to him I will give power over the nations.”
but not every Church member will have power over the nations. Not every believer will rule and reign with Christ. Only those who keep His Word and works to the end and overcomes the evils of this world. So the N.T. categorizes successful believers from unsuccessful believers.

“unsuccessful” believers? A very novel concept.

You said…

“loyalty to the Catholic church is loyalty to Christ.”

this is foolishness. The N.T. Church didn’t believe this. why do you?

The NT Church believed it. You don’t.

Loyalty to Christ and His word is true Loyalty! despite what the Church may drift into. You need to start using the word Church as a verb (the called out ones) instead of a noun (the hierarchy of organized whatever…)

I like the way the Catholic Church uses the word Church and will continue to use it the way she exemplifies.

This idea of an unsuccessful believer in heaven. This is truly unique. So, to you, if a person makes it into heaven by the skin of his teeth, he is “unsuccessful”?

 

[De_Maria]

Today, when the pope decrees a matter on his St. Peter’s chair, it is as if scripture is being written with every word. It is believed to be totally equal with the apostle Paul and others. But that is absolute heresy and the CC must repent of such a notion. Luther was right about it.

On the contrary, when the Pope decrees a matter from the Chair of Peter, it is Christ who speaks through him.

What’s the matter, you think Christ can write through men but can’t believe that Christ can speak through men?

 

[guanophore]

Shall we go over those scriptures again of how the “Church” needed to be encouraged to go the right way. Why? because there was the temptation to go the wrong way.

No, what I need you to go over is what happened to the powerful Jesus that appears in Revelation to guide and guard the Church. Where did He go? Why did He abandon them until 1500?

These kind of admonishments are all over the N.T. But you speak as if the “true” Church can never go the wrong way. Therefore you insolate yourself from any evaluation. But Paul didn’t believe that.

The Church is incarnational, as the Body of Jesus. There are divine elements, and human elements. The human elements can stray, but the divine elements are infallible. Paul addressed the human elements of the Church, as should always be done. The Church is not “insolated” from evaluation, but neither is God subject to our human evaluations.

His 1st. Century church was prone to drift, and Paul and others fought to keep the Church in the truth.

This is the duty of the Aposotlic commission. This is why the successors of the Apostles, the Bishops have this same duty. This is the function of the Councils that you seem to abhor so much. They even use the Pauline construction to warn the faithful, the one you have called “threats”?

Just because you, or your organized Church, are stones in the building of God does not mean you are exempt from the possibility of false doctrine, or the temptations to go the wrong way.

Human beings are fallible, and always in need of correction. Of course no individual is exempt from the possibility of false doctrines or temptations to go astray. But the divine elements of the Church are not subject to these things. It is the divine elements that make the Church infallible.

“loyalty to the Catholic church is loyalty to Christ.”

this is foolishness. The N.T. Church didn’t believe this. why do you?

Loyalty to Christ and His word is true Loyalty! despite what the Church may drift into. You need to start using the word Church as a verb (the called out ones) instead of a noun (the hierarchy of organized whatever…)

Actually this is exactly what the NT Church believed. Jesus taught there was no separation between HImself, and His One Body, the Church. When Paul was persecuting the Church, Jesus accused him of “persecute me”.

Loyatly to Christ and His Word means that we believe His very great and precious promises, that He would lead the Church into All Truth, and be with us unti the end of the age.

I think the problem here is the deficient notion of Chruch as “the heirarchy of organized whatever”. Although the Church founded by Christ does have heirarchy and is organized, this is only a part of the definition. Christ is her Head, and the HS is the Soul of the Church.

 

[guanophore]

Oh my goodness… it begins with a concept. What is the concept? … that divine revelation comes ONLY through inspired scripture. That divine revelation does not come from any other source.

The CC argues from silence on these points. Here’s what I mean. We both know the passag

Yes. And this is an anti-scritpural and anti apostolic concept.

Yes, we all know this and we all agree! Isn’t that wonderful?

Yes!

But you want me to produce a scripture which says, tradition is NOT divinely inspired. Therefore, if we cannot produce that, you can then add it to the list of inspirational sources.

No, actually, I don’t expect you will be able to do this. We will also agree that Scripture does not contradict itself, and Scripture equates Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

This is exactly what happened in the CC a Church, with a council where the Cardinals and the Pope exalted tradition to be of equal authority with scripture.

No, tgG, the Apostles did that. The Church has upheld what was handed down to us. The problem seems to be that you are not able to distinguish human traditions from the Sacred.

“So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.” 2 Thess. 2:15

Why would the apostle command them to hold fast to human traditions?

 

[guanophore]

I cannot produce a verse that says exactly what you want. But I can produce a passage where Jesus warned about the weaknesses of tradition, implying that it is not on equal par with inspired scripture and NEVER called the WORD OF GOD.

HUman traditions will always contain weaknesses. Sacred Tradition does not, because it has it’s origin in the same place Scritpure does. it is infallible because of the Divine Source.

“And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe.” I Thess. 2;13

The Apostles brought the Sacred tradition in their preaching, and it was received and began to work in those who believed. Those who received it were commanded to hold fast to it, preserve it, and guard it. All of this happened before a word of the NT was ever written. And there is nothing in those writings that says Sacred Tradition would become invalid because some of it got written.

Today, when the pope decrees a matter on his St. Peter’s chair, it is as if scripture is being written with every word. It is believed to be totally equal with the apostle Paul and others. But that is absolute heresy and the CC must repent of such a notion. Luther was right about it.

I don’t know why you keep claiming that you are not still Protesting, tgG. Your statements certainly seem to indicate that you have situated yourself firmly in the place of the Reformers, and are continuing to protest.

The Pope and the Councils do not “declare” anything that was not handed down to us. The sheperds of the church have to duty to preserve the faithful from falling into error. Declarations must be made to clarify the Truth, so that the faithful will have guidance to discern it from departures.

We do have a different understanding of Ekklesia. We understand it as being called out of the world, such that we become pilgrims here on earth, as our home is in heaven.

 

[AnnetteJoan]

When I read or come into contact with arrogant, judgemental protestants, I am reminded of my favorite saying, “My what chaos the protestant deformation hath wrought!” I thought of it again this morning when I watched a documentary on the Amish, who arose from the anabaptist movement, which arose from the which arose from the which arose from the (and on it goes) protestant deformation!

It AMAZES me that protestants cannot see the sheer chaos brought out of the protestant revolt…it ultimately is even the source of many cults, such as the JWs and Mormons…the JWs, SDAs, etc arose from the 19th century “great awakening” where people set dates for the return of Christ, the Millerites saying it was 1844, the JWs setting various dates. The SDA sect even arose because of the failed 1844 prophecy of William Miller!

Mormonism was established when Jos Smith prayed to ask God what denomination to join, and God supposedly told him that ALL current churches were corrupt and (surprise, surprise,) he should start a new one. I guess Smith’s god felt the gates of hell prevailed, eh?

THANK YOU JESUS that You led me to the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ in 33 AD, and which history has PROVEN is the only true church!

 

[AnnetteJoan]

I do not mean this in a mean-spirited way, or with any hatred. This is truly what I think may be the case.

I think heresies either arise out of mental illness, or people with mental illnesses are drawn to them, or they arise out of a spirit of rebellion, not unlike satan’s rebellion when he said, “I will not serve!”

I just don’t see any other explanation for the way heretics respond when presented with the Christian truth and faith (meaning Catholic, of course.)

And as my son said, now I see why the Church took such extreme measures with heretics in Europe in the Middle Ages…by modern standards their methods were harsh, but when you consider that there was no separation of Church and state, and the Church felt obligated to protect the souls of the faithful from pernicious heresies AND the way they infect the soul, it makes sense. Heresy is very hard to root out of the soul of a person infected by it, I have seen that firsthand. Its like trying to get dye out of a fabric once it has set.

St Matthew 10:28: And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[De_Maria]

I don’t disagree. Essentially, it is a work of grace.

But for the grace of God, there go I.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

So why did Ignatius, a first century bishop, ordained by the apostles, direct disciple of John, say that the Church of Rome holds the presidency? Ignatius BTW, is from Antioch in Syria.

I don’t know if he actually said that but there is one thing I do know, the apostle John has never said it. and It was John was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I quoted the writings of a direct disciple of John the apostle. You OTOH, left the Church John the apostle was commissioned to build, and was building, and Ignatius, John’s disciple wrote about as well, for a 16th century heretic named Calvin. Guess what? Calvin wasn’t under the inspiration of the HS. It was Satan. Satan is the one who divides what Jesus established. Don’t even try to justify Calvin’s errors as being inspired by the HS.

When Jesus said,
Jn 16:
12 “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

Jesus will is that ALL will be perfectly one. THAT is the ongoing message. Zero division

Therefore the Protestant revolt was condemned by the HS. As I said back on Jan 6, It’s all one giant heresy. The Great Heresies | Catholic Answers and the HS can’t teach heresy or lead anyone into heresy.

 

[tgGodsway]

On the contrary, when the Pope decrees a matter from the Chair of Peter, it is Christ who speaks through him.

What’s the matter, you think Christ can write through men but can’t believe that Christ can speak through men?

Christ has finished speaking at the close of the N.T. revelation. He will not speak again until he stands up from His thrown and returns to earth.

 

[De_Maria]

He will not speak again until he stands up from His thrown…

Lol! Funny slip there.

De_Maria:

On the contrary, when the Pope decrees a matter from the Chair of Peter, it is Christ who speaks through him.

What’s the matter, you think Christ can write through men but can’t believe that Christ can speak through men?

Christ has finished speaking at the close of the N.T. revelation. He will not speak again until he stands up from His thrown and returns to earth.

Seriously, though. Do you really believe that Jesus no longer communicates to mankind?

Well, we believe He continues to do so and that the Church is His main instrument for that purpose.

 

[tgGodsway]

Seriously, though. Do you really believe that Jesus no longer communicates to mankind?

Well, we believe He continues to do so and that the Church is His main instrument for that purpose.

we believe he does too, but it is not the Church primarily who He speaks through, because the Church “sees through a glass darkly…” But He does continue to speak through His inspired word called the N.T.

 

[steve-b]

guanophore:

An extrabiblical concept. When I was in seminary it was taught as a “doctrine” of the faith, and our hermeneutics textbook referred to it as a doctrine. In the last few decades this has changed. It has been called a “concept”, “principle’ and a 'practice”. What I notice is that it is still treated like a “doctrine”.

But you want me to produce a scripture which says, tradition is NOT divinely inspired. Therefore, if we cannot produce that, you can then add it to the list of inspirational sources.

This is exactly what happened in the CC a Church, with a council where the Cardinals and the Pope exalted tradition to be of equal authority with scripture.

I cannot produce a verse that says exactly what you want. But I can produce a passage where Jesus warned about the weaknesses of tradition, implying that it is not on equal par with inspired scripture and NEVER called the WORD OF GOD. Here’s one for you, YOU cannot produce a scripture teaching that tradition is on equal par with the word of God.

Good grief!

Before there was the written tradition(scripture) there was the oral tradition. And it’s NOT of either / or importance, BOTH are to be valued and held

You never saw this before? 2 Thes 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter . 2 Thessalonians 2:15 RSVCE - So then, brethren, stand firm and hold - Bible Gateway

Do you understand? Hold fast to both

Who did Paul get that from? The HS. Where did the HS get that from to teach Paul? It was from Jesus

When Jesus said,
Jn 16:
12 “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

tgGodsway:

Sola scriptura was Luther’s way of saying, only the bible is inspired and NOT the CC as a mouthpiece with their oral traditions and papacy decrees.

For all we know Luther the heretic, could be in hell right now, screaming his head off.

When I quoted Early Church Fathers who are saints in heaven, to make various points, you fire back with, why appeal to them, they aren’t inspired. Yet you appeal to known heretics to make YOUR points?

Regarding : Luther regards scripture as inspired?, on the contrary he removed 7 books from the OT scriptures. then tried to remove 4 NT books as well. Jude, James, Hebrews, and Rev. And to this day, all Protestants follow his lead, offering bible lite (minus 7 books) , in their bible translations.

tgGodsway:

when the pope decrees a matter on his St. Peter’s chair, it is as if scripture is being written with every word.

Where’s your source

 

[tgGodsway]

Your running but you can’t hide. We’re going to do our best to give you the best chance to get into heaven. We will Teach you the truth. If you reject it, that is your fault. Not ours.

Goodness De_Maria, I have forgotten how judgmental and self righteous seem to be on your post… You remind me of the Pharisees who were convinced that Christ and His followers were all dead wrong, and they self-righteously right. God is so much bigger than the narrow interpretations that come from you. You should repent and get right with God, lest you lose your reward.

 

[steve-b]

De_Maria:

Seriously, though. Do you really believe that Jesus no longer communicates to mankind?

Well, we believe He continues to do so and that the Church is His main instrument for that purpose.

**we believe he does too, but it is not the Church primarily who He speaks through, because the Church “sees through a glass darkly…”

Re: the Church

Our Lord speaks through HIS Church, that He established Himself…that is the pillar and foundation of truth 1 Timothy 3:15 RSVCE - if I am delayed, you may know how one - Bible Gateway

Jesus said, if a person won’t listen even to His Church, then treat them as an outsider. Matthew 18:17 RSVCE - If he refuses to listen to them, tell - Bible Gateway

You’ve been on the outside ever since you left.

tgGodsway:

But He does continue to speak through His inspired word called the N.T.**

If you read it you’d come home.

 

[tgGodsway]

Do you understand? Hold fast to both

Who did Paul get that from? The HS. Where did the HS get that from to teach Paul? It was from Jesus

… I am totally aware of this passage and have dealt with it on this site. What the CC produces today as, quote “tradition” is not that of the oral tradition passed among the Apostles when they were alive. It may include them!, but the CC goes WAY beyond biblical traditions of Paul and Peter’s day. So that by their ‘tradition’ the N.T. voice stays alive and evolves through oral decree. In other words, God is still speaking way beyond the close of the book of Revelation.

The most unconvincing part of this, is the blatant mistakes and contradictions made by these oral traditions. These were contradiction to the word of God itself made in each decree. Such as, and I’ve mentioned before, the doctrine of Mary with her sinless birth, life, death, and resurrection. It is an embarrassing blunder in my view.

These kind of things only confirm Jesus teaching to treat tradition as secondary to inspired scripture because of it’s weak and unreliable nature, not to mention one’s disobedience to that message. Remember, the holy Spirit makes no claim to inspire tradition. This should be troubling to any serious student of Christ and what does it say about those who fought for it as a doctrine?

 

[tgGodsway]

You’ve been on the outside ever since you left.

tgGodsway:

I’ve never left Christ and I’ve never left the Church. I have always been a stone in God’s universal and divine building. Your perception of me is simply an opinion.

 

[tgGodsway]

But Paul was right when he admitted that the Church doesn’t see all things correctly. …The church is not infallible. Paul said, "We know in part and prophesy in part… 1st. Cor. 13:9 … for now we see in a mirrow dimly, but then face to face… Now I know in part… but then… I shall know just as I also am known. v12

This is why just the Church alone is not enough. When the church gets it wrong, we still have inspired scripture which never gets it wrong. The Holy Spirit will teach us all things…
But the Church is not just a noun… it is a verb… We are called to take the gospel public and preach the kingdom of God. No… I’ve never been on the outside after conversion. I am an insider all the way.