Debt, Forgiveness, & Temporal Punishment

[TommyWommy]

Why is there temporal punishment for sin? If we are forgiven, and our debt is paid by Christ, why is there “punishment” remaining? Why is it not like the creditor in Luke 7:41 who forgave his debtors so they had nothing left that they had to pay him?

I’ve heard the following analogy: if someone steals $100, they can be forgiven, but they still have to give the $100 back. This is used to explain temporal punishment. Yet, it does not line up with the idea of forgiving debts as in Luke 7:41.

When we pray, “Forgive us our trespasses (debts) as we forgive those who trespass against us (debtors)” are we then supposed to go around collecting from our debtors what they still “owe” us (like the $100 they stole, for example)? Wouldn’t it be a more total forgiveness to say, “Forget about the $100. It’s water under the bridge?”

I’m having some confusion about forgiveness, debts, and the idea of temporal punishment left over after forgiveness. What did Christ “pay” for, and what do we “pay” for? I thought Christ paid it “all.”

Is this about doing penance? If I’m the one that stole the $100, am I not really forgiven until I pay the money back? If so, then what about the debtors in Luke? They didn’t have to pay back anything. Somebody help me get unstuck with this, please.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Christ enables us to be freed from the eternal consequences of sin. Temporal consequences remain, right down to the fact that we even have to die. You are forgiven of your sins the moment you genuinely repent. That would include the disposition to make amends for that sin when you are able. So the eternal consequences are taken away at repentance. And the temporal consequences are removed when you correct the wrong or do a penance as you said.

See the Catechism for mentions of temporal punishment. I also recommend Jimmy Akin’s book The Salvation Controversy which has an apologetic chapter on this subject.

 

[TommyWommy]

Christ enables us to be freed from the eternal consequences of sin. Temporal consequences remain, right down to the fact that we even have to die. You are forgiven of your sins the moment you genuinely repent. That would include the disposition to make amends for that sin when you are able. So the eternal consequences are taken away at repentance. And the temporal consequences are removed when you correct the wrong or do a penance as you said.

See the Catechism for mentions of temporal punishment. I also recommend Jimmy Akin’s book The Salvation Controversy which has an apologetic chapter on this subject.

Thank you. For some reason I wasn’t considering the part about death. That makes more sense to me, now. If Jesus paid it “all” (temporal and eternal), the funeral homes would have a lot less business

Sometimes I need to be reminded of what’s right in front of me.

Then the story of the creditor and the debtors has more to do with how grateful we should be for the forgiveness we are granted rather than removal of both eternal and temporal debt, I suppose(?)

I’ll get that book. I think I need it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Why is there temporal punishment for sin? If we are forgiven, and our debt is paid by Christ, why is there “punishment” remaining? Why is it not like the creditor in Luke 7:41 who forgave his debtors so they had nothing left that they had to pay him?

I’ve heard the following analogy: if someone steals $100, they can be forgiven, but they still have to give the $100 back. This is used to explain temporal punishment. Yet, it does not line up with the idea of forgiving debts as in Luke 7:41.

When we pray, “Forgive us our trespasses (debts) as we forgive those who trespass against us (debtors)” are we then supposed to go around collecting from our debtors what they still “owe” us (like the $100 they stole, for example)? Wouldn’t it be a more total forgiveness to say, “Forget about the $100. It’s water under the bridge?”

I’m having some confusion about forgiveness, debts, and the idea of temporal punishment left over after forgiveness. What did Christ “pay” for, and what do we “pay” for? I thought Christ paid it “all.”

If Christ paid it “all”, then does anyone go to hell? Why would they if EVERYONE’s sins have been paid for?

Is this about doing penance? If I’m the one that stole the $100, am I not really forgiven until I pay the money back? If so, then what about the debtors in Luke? They didn’t have to pay back anything. Somebody help me get unstuck with this, please.

The question of temporal sin is related to the doctrine of Purgatory. Here are a few related thoughts from Patrick Madrid that I compiled:

On the Temporal Effects of Sin
From Answer Me This!
By Patrick Madrid

What Purgatory is NOT:

1. Purgatory is not a second chance.
2. Purgatory is not a place where the soul can do anything to cleans himself; all cleansing is done by God alone.
3. Purgatory is not a “third option” for people who are “too good” for heaven but “too bad” for heaven; there are only two destinations for those who have died: heaven or hell.

Principles Supporting Purgatory:

1. Scripture teaches that we can pray for those who have died.
2. Those in heaven do not need prayer; those in hell cannot benefit.
3. Scripture teaches that there are other places where those who have died may be other than heaven or hell: hades and "Abraham’s Bosom (or the Limbo of the Fathers).
4. We know that nothing unclean can enter heaven.
5. We know that we may not be perfectly detached from sin and the things of this world when we die.

The temporal effects of sin are best illustrated in Genesis 3:14-20, where God pronounces a series of maledictions against Adam and Eve, the serpent, and even the physical creation itself, all as a result of Adam and Eve’s disobedience: the original sin. The eternal penalty of their sin—hell—was something Christ atoned for on the cross, and Adam and Eve’s salvation and avoidance of that penalty was due to their faith in God’s promises and their subsequent obedience to His laws, but the temporal effects of sin remained. Enmity with the rest of nature, having to work to eat, labor pains for women, sickness, and eventually death, were all part of the punishments God permitted to fall upon Adam and Eve and all of us, their descendants. So when you, a born-again Christian, receive Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you correctly believe that He will forgive you of your sins and remit the eternal punishment they deserve. But you still are going to have to get up and go to work tomorrow, right? Your wife will still experience pain in childbirth; you may even someday be afflicted with cancer, or some other life-threatening disease. You might have a heart attack. And in the end you, like me and everybody else, will eventually suffer the greatest of the temporal punishments outlined in Genesis 3: You are going to die someday. Christ’s atoning sacrifice paid for your sins, but it didn’t wipe out the temporal effects, including the punishments I just mentioned of your sins.

There are other examples of the principle of temporal punishments due to sin that God does not even eliminate even when we repent and are forgiven of our sins.

For example, in 2 Samuel 12:14-14, we see the tragic case of King David. He had sinned by committing adultery and murder, and though the Lord forgave him when he repented, there were repercussions that followed which god did not alleviate. A form of restitution was still owed:

2 Samuel 12:13-14
13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.”

Now, how does all this fit into the doctrine of purgatory? Purgatory is the place or state (however you’d like to think of it) in which the fire of God’s love purifies us from the temporal effects due to sin, which include any temporal punishments due to our sins.

 

[TommyWommy]

If Christ paid it “all”, then does anyone go to hell? Why would they if EVERYONE’s sins have been paid for?

The question of temporal sin is related to the doctrine of Purgatory. Here are a few related thoughts from Patrick Madrid that I compiled:

On the Temporal Effects of Sin
From Answer Me This!
By Patrick Madrid

What Purgatory is NOT:

1. Purgatory is not a second chance.
2. Purgatory is not a place where the soul can do anything to cleans himself; all cleansing is done by God alone.
3. Purgatory is not a “third option” for people who are “too good” for heaven but “too bad” for heaven; there are only two destinations for those who have died: heaven or hell.

Principles Supporting Purgatory:

1. Scripture teaches that we can pray for those who have died.
2. Those in heaven do not need prayer; those in hell cannot benefit.
3. Scripture teaches that there are other places where those who have died may be other than heaven or hell: hades and "Abraham’s Bosom (or the Limbo of the Fathers).
4. We know that nothing unclean can enter heaven.
5. We know that we may not be perfectly detached from sin and the things of this world when we die.

The temporal effects of sin are best illustrated in Genesis 3:14-20, where God pronounces a series of maledictions against Adam and Eve, the serpent, and even the physical creation itself, all as a result of Adam and Eve’s disobedience: the original sin. The eternal penalty of their sin—hell—was something Christ atoned for on the cross, and Adam and Eve’s salvation and avoidance of that penalty was due to their faith in God’s promises and their subsequent obedience to His laws, but the temporal effects of sin remained. Enmity with the rest of nature, having to work to eat, labor pains for women, sickness, and eventually death, were all part of the punishments God permitted to fall upon Adam and Eve and all of us, their descendants. So when you, a born-again Christian, receive Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you correctly believe that He will forgive you of your sins and remit the eternal punishment they deserve. But you still are going to have to get up and go to work tomorrow, right? Your wife will still experience pain in childbirth; you may even someday be afflicted with cancer, or some other life-threatening disease. You might have a heart attack. And in the end you, like me and everybody else, will eventually suffer the greatest of the temporal punishments outlined in Genesis 3: You are going to die someday. Christ’s atoning sacrifice paid for your sins, but it didn’t wipe out the temporal effects, including the punishments I just mentioned of your sins.

There are other examples of the principle of temporal punishments due to sin that God does not even eliminate even when we repent and are forgiven of our sins.

For example, in 2 Samuel 12:14-14, we see the tragic case of King David. He had sinned by committing adultery and murder, and though the Lord forgave him when he repented, there were repercussions that followed which god did not alleviate. A form of restitution was still owed:

2 Samuel 12:13-14
13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.”

Now, how does all this fit into the doctrine of purgatory? Purgatory is the place or state (however you’d like to think of it) in which the fire of God’s love purifies us from the temporal effects due to sin, which include any temporal punishments due to our sins.

Thank you:thumbsup: Very helpful as well.

When we pray, “Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespassed against us,” and when we are told to “forgive seventy times seven times,” how does the distinction between eternal and temporal apply (humanly speaking), if at all?

I’m thinking that maybe it applies in our attitude towards someone that, say, stole money from us. We can still forgive them and love them and be kind to them (eternal and godly) yet still insist that they return the money (temporal and earthly). Does this seem like a proper application? Would it be even “more” forgiving to let them keep the money, or, perhaps, less kind since we do them no favor by letting them profit from their misdeed (i.e. they learn the wrong lesson)?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Thank you. For some reason I wasn’t considering the part about death. That makes more sense to me, now. If Jesus paid it “all” (temporal and eternal), the funeral homes would have a lot less business

Indeed. The fact that “in Adam all die” refutes all accusations against Catholicism and temporal punishment that Christ “paid it all.” Since death is a consequence of sin, why do any of us die if Christ took away all consequences of sin? There is no decent counter-apologetic to this point I’ve ever seen. Once some young fellow tried to counter by telling me he wasn’t going to die, and I determined him unworthy of reason at that point. The only other way they could do it is to try to say death is not a consequence of sin, which would require a re-write of Genesis.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thank you:thumbsup: Very helpful as well.

When we pray, “Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespassed against us,” and when we are told to “forgive seventy times seven times,” how does the distinction between eternal and temporal apply (humanly speaking), if at all?

We forgive others for their offenses against us in the temporal sense. Only God can deal with the eternal consequences of sin.