Debunking "scriptural proofs of Pope as Anti-Christ"

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CarrieMG

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I know the sources quoted herein aren’t truly Catholic simply from what they state as being Catholic teaching. Any help with the historical and Biblical interpretations is appreciated.

REVIEW OF THE TEN IDENTIFYING POINTS OF THE ANTICHRIST POWER
1, 2. Daniel 7:8, It “came up among” the other 10 horns or kingdoms, after 476 A.D. There is only one “little” kingdom that fits this description and that’s the Vatican City and the Holy Roman empire.
3. Daniel 7:8, It’s still to this day a “little kingdom.” The Vatican is only 109 acres in size, but it is a powerful kingdom and the wealthiest kingdom in the world. No other power fits this description.
4. Daniel 7:8, It “uproots three kingdoms.” Clearly documented in history is the eradication of the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths by the armies of Papal Rome. The last to go were the Ostrogoths in 538 A. D. The same year, Roman Emperor Justinian gave the Bishop of Rome authority over the kingdom.
5. Daniel 7:8 (last part), There would be “A man at its head.” To this day the Vatican City is the only kingdom that has always had a visible man at its head, the Pope.
6. Daniel 7: 24, “It would be different.” All the preceding kingdoms had been simple governments set up in normal political manners. Papal Rome, however, was and still is unique and different because it is a CHURCH that
rules. Policies are dictated by the Bishops and Popes.
7. Daniel 7: 25, It “speaks great words and blasphemy.” The Bible definition of blasphemy is composed of two things. 1. A man claiming to be God. 2. A man claiming to have power to forgive sins. From the pages of Catholic books. FERRARIS’S ECCLESIASTICAL DICTIONARY under THE POPE says: “The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a man, but as it were, God, and the Vicar of God. The Pope is called “Most Holy” because he is rightfully presumed to be such… Moreover the superiority, and the power of the Roman Pontiff, but by no means pertain only to heavenly things, to earthly things, and to things under the earth, but are even over angels, of whom he is greater… The Pope is as it were God on earth.” From the CATHOLIC NATIONAL, July of 1895: “The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh.”
What about the forgiveness of sins? JOSEPH DEHARBE’S CATECHISM says, on page 279: “The priest does really and truly forgive sins in virtue of the power given to him by Christ.” Another from THE CATHOLIC PRIEST, pages 78, 79: “Seek where you will, through heaven and earth, and you will find but one created being who can forgive the sinner, who can free him from the chains of hell, that extraordinary being is the priest, the (Roman) Catholic priest. Yes, beloved brethren, the priest is not only declares that the sinner is forgiven, but he really forgives him. The priest raises his hand, he pronounces the word of absolution, and in an instant, quick as a flash of light the chains of hell are burst asunder, and the sinner becomes a child of God.”
8. Daniel 7:25, “He would war against God’s people and persecute them.” Although this is now past, all people of the earth are aware of the millions of martyrs put to death during the Dark Ages by the Papal armies. The most conservative estimates are 50 million men and women who were put to death. One only needs to read the pages of hundreds of history books available to
document this, Pope Innocent 111, 1198-1216 was responsible for thousands of martyrs. The Spanish Inquisition, the Massacre of St. Bartholomew, and the
history of the Waldenses are a few examples. We do not cite this for the purpose of casting reflection, these things are past, however, we must discuss them to see the fulfillment of prophecy.
9. Daniel 7:25, “He would think to change times and laws.” Again let’s quote from the Catholic Dictionary article under THE POPE: “The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, change, or
interpret even divine laws. The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and loosing his sheep.” In the CONVERTS CATECHISM OF CATHOLIC DOCTRINE, page 49, we find that God’s law has been changed. Exodus 20 contains God’s laws. However, the CONVERT’S
CATECHISM law has omitted the SECOND COMMANDMENT and split the tenth in two.
No other power on earth has done this.
10. Daniel 7: 25, It would rule 1260 years. This is a most dramatic prophecy! Beginning in 538 A.D. Papal Rome finally destroyed the Ostrogoths. Emperor Justinian gave the kingdom over to the Bishop of Rome that year. Add
1260 years to that and you come to 1798. The year of the French Revolution. In 1798 Napoleon’s armies overthrew the Papal power, confiscated all the
property of the kingdom, declared a republic, and took the Pope off the throne where in France he died in exile. Exactly 1260 years as prophesied!

Thanks for your time, Carrie
 
Keep in mind when refering to Daniel:
  1. Bible-thumpers use paralle this text to seciont in Revlation. they believe that all the events will occur int he future. The Catholic interpretation is that it refers to the fall of Jeruslame. It is a past event.
  2. The little Kingdom is the Roman Empire, because at the time of Nero, it incorprated ten kingdoms: Italy, Achaia, Asia, Syria, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Gaul, Britain, and Germany. These are the ten horns. (see David Currie Rapture p. 321 for more explanation). The ancient Roamn Empire fits the descpition the best, and Nero is believed to constitute the little horn. During his reign, Christianity was threatened with extinction. If rome were one of the horns, people belive that the European Union is now the big threat to Christianity (funny thing is the European Union comprises 15 not ten countries/kingdoms and is growing and Rome is far from its origin of power; it’s one of the medicore eocnomies and political centers)
  3. Jerusalem better represent the concept of the city within “seven hills,” becuase the word often translated to mean hills, more accurately resembles “mountains,” the the hills that surround Rome are nothing in comparison to the size of those that surround Jerusalem (Patrick Madrid writes quite a bit of this in Pope Fiction).
  4. How can the Pope possibly be the anti-Christ, when Jesus promised Peter the keys to his kingdom, and to protect it from the gates of hell. It appears that the anti-christ will come under the guise of a new religious leader, but this does not necearrily mena the leader of an instituionlized religion, or even relgion in the formal snese. It might be a power of pagan-type powers liek the consummerism and secularism. Also, many argue that many anit-Christs have already entered the world and have been conquered.
  5. Catholic (and mainstream Protestants who have organized Churches) interpretation of Daniel (which is connected to interpretation of Revelation) is that we are now in the Messianic or Church age. There is more of this on the Armageddon thread under the apologetics forum. The Catholic churhc is different becuase it is the kingdom represented by stone which begins as a rock in Daniel’s vision, but grows into a moutain to conquer other kingdoms in scope of grandeur. It is not a phyiscal kingdom, meaning based on geographical ties to the land, as was Judaism under Rabbinic law, where no city had the imprtance of Jerusalem, since the Temple was based there, but isntead it is a spiritual Kingdom.
God reigns spiritually through his kingdom on earth, the Church, which can not be impacted by the destruction of a physical city, in the way that the destruction of the Temple changed the format of Judaism from biblical Judaism (centrality of the Temple in worship; preists from Levite lineage) to present-day Rabinnical Judaism (in which some Jewish interpretations belive it is sacreligeious to refer to any worship space as a temple and use the term synagogue). In Chritisnity churches all equally serve as worship places for God; be they in Rome or in Beijing.

I hope this helps as a beginning. Check out the other threads on this topic in the apologetics and scripture forums. I’m sure more people will offer better information.
 
No man on earth can quote the scriptures better than satan himself.
 
Hey guys,

I’m new on the forums… I’m becoming Catholic (or Orthodox) as God is leading me. As a religion minor (once major) at Southern Adventist University, I am well versed in this interpretation of Daniel, which is shared by all Adventists.

I have some information that might be useful for you…

1-2) The little horn rises among the 10 other horns of the beast… these are understood as the 10 barbaric tribes which divided the fallen the roman empire split after its fall in 476. Unfortunately:
  • the papacy traces its origins to apostolic times, and grew in power throughout many centuries… the first four ecumenical councils affirmed the primacy of the church of rome in christianity… the power (political and spiritual) wielded by St. Damasus and St. Leo is noteworthy, and this before 476! - you see… the papacy didnt arise AFTER 476 among the 10 little horns. the papacy SURVIVED the fall of the roman empire, an empire that had sponsored a STATE CHURCH… the church continued to wield the authority over society it had before, though through crisis it had lost the political structure that had at one time supported it… the roman catholic church attempted to preserve the law and order of the fallen empire for centuries afterwards
  1. “Little” horn must mean that the church of Rome (simply a small city) is the antichrist power described
  • certainly, the verse is implying that the power had humble origins… this is a neutral point in our discussion… many powers (Islam included) had humble beginnings
  1. Heres the issue…
  • Adventists only allow the 10 horns to represent one agreed-upon list of the tribes that conquered the western roman empire… yet, one cannot forget that its eastern half survived for another milennium (not included in their traditional listing)… a question for adventists must be - HOW AND WHY is the scope of this prophetic picture limited to the Western Roman Empire (especially considering that Bible prophecy is usually written from the perspective of Israel, a territory in the eastern empire)… furthermore, even if one identifies the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths with the tribes “uprooted” by the papacy one is overlooking the fact that it was justinian’s eastern roman empire that uprooted these powers (not the roman church (!), although justinian did conquer them to protect the city of rome and its bishop), and that the papacy never gained control of these territories (which were again later lost by the eastern empire)… a power that supposedly uproots these powers should at least have the lands to show for their “conquest”… there was NO territorial gain… the bishop or rome continued to be the bishop of rome although later in the middle ages he controlled a good portion of italy known as the “papal states”… finally, smauele bacchicochi, a professor at the adventist seminary in north america (andrews university) has questioned traditional adventist interpretation, making the criticism that:
“Justinian’s triumph over the Ostrogoths (538) in Italy was short lived. First, because under their new leader, Totila, the Ostrogoths quickly recaptured most of their lost territories. Second, because three years after Justinian’s death in 565, another Germanic people, the Lombards, invaded the Italian peninsula and weakened the Papal power.”

However, I will concede that the Ostrogoths were eventually pushed off the scene and ceased to exist.
  1. Every kingdom has a man at its head usually, lol… there is a larger prophetic imagery at work in the passage however (“eyes like a man”)… adventists are moving fromt he symbolic to the literal too quickly
  2. Saying that the papacy was different from the other powers becuase it was a religious power is absurd because nearly all kingdoms int he ancient world were religious powers… rome was a christian power enforcing christian laws by 476… islam was ruled by religious leaders (caliphs)… this is not CLEARLY a reference to the papacy (and again, saying that it was different because it was a religious power is an assumption/interpretation)
 
  1. the “blasphemy” charge says that catholic references to the pope being the visible representative of christ on earth (petrine primacy and succession) and the church’s power to forgive sins (sacramental absolution) are assaults upon God… this ignores the fact that we have a clear scriptural foundation for both doctrines, after all - the verse adventists use to prove that the claim to fogrvie men’s sins is blasphemy (Matt. 9:2-3) is followed byt he verse that says " When the crowd saw this [Christ’s healing and forgive men’s sins], they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men." (Matthew 9:8), foreshadowing john 20 (and james 5) and the bestowal of the special charism of reconciliaition to the apostles
  2. everyone persecutes… the church delat with heretics… but there is nothing distinctly catholic here, though they can use it if they want, we’re already proving them wrong (still, the true church was the catholic church - there were the saints of the most high!)… p.s. islam persecuted christians to a far more painful extant than the papacy (im not claiming that islam is the power described, but its to prove a point… protestant figures on the catholic suppression of heretics, etc. are rather, ahem… EXAGGERATED)
  3. the changing of times and laws is taken to be the differnet catholic different numbering of the ten commandments (a pathetic excuse considering jews number the 10 commandments in still a third way), and the change of the sabbath (more weighty for adventists, and more complex for us to discuss here, its an issue i cant enter into right now)
  4. using the idea (valid for a historicist) that a “day” in apocalyptic equals a year, the 1260 days are taken to be 1260 years of power for the papacy… the problem is that 538 is a poor starting date because the power of the roman church had beeen establsihed before hand, or wouldnt be established territorily until later (its an arbitrary date… when did america become powerful?.. no one date suffices) and 1798 represented only another episode of the pope being captured by an army… the power of the church had declined centuries before (reformation, rise of nationalism), and its territorial dominion wasnt taken away until the later 19th century (decades later)… again, both dates, so foundational to this specific 1,260 year puzzle are arbitrary… one high ranking adventist scholar has been questioned becuae he too douubts the validity of these dates…
I could write more… but I have LOTS of hw to do… let me know if you have any questions, and ill continue to research what i wrote above so i can perfect the arguemnts or correct them

In the peace of Christ, and in the unity of the Faith I hope to soon embrace.
 
P.S. pray for my own witness to Adventists here on campus
 
Thank you Adventistnomore. I will keep your efforts in my daily prayers!

Your info really helps me.

My goal is in dealing with an old friend with whom I have only after mny years once again come into contact who became Adventist because it was the only religion that “proved the Bible” and thus he could believe in God because only God could have predicted so accurately all these dates, etc. I hope not to convert him as much as hopefully show him the information he is passing on about the Catholic Church is not accurate.

God Bless You. Carrie
 
Welcome Adventistnomore!🙂
Congrats on seeing through all that horn nonsense and the rest even though you were inundated by it.

Regarding the persecution topic. Surprise, you will either need to be very careful, or be prepared to be persecuted as a Catholic. (I guess I’m a coward I’d go the careful route!!) Make sure you get your hw done too!

Yes, you are in our prayers!!
 
Who was actually the first to call the Pope the Anti-Christ? Was it Luther, or was it one of the schismatic groups or anti-popes from the preceding centuries?

DaveBj
 
Yes, identifying the Catholic Church’s leadership as “Antichrist” dates back farther than the Protestant reformers… to certain heretical groups during the middle ages.
 
Actually, after doing some reading, I’ve also discovered that there were some within the Church during the Middle Ages who also attacked the bishop of Rome as being the antichrist. Not sure why… perhaps for the power base of the papacy more than for religious reasons. I’ll keep researching it.
 
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