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InJesusItrust
Guest
There are pictures showing JPII surrounded by Freemasons. How do we debunk the theory that Freemasons have infiltrated the Church to high positions?
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Joe_5859
Guest
There are? I’ve never seen such pictures. In any case, even if such pictures existed, they mean absolutely nothing other than that JPII was standing next to some guys who are freemasons.
Debunking a conspiracy theory is like trying to nail jello to the wall. In reality, the burden of proof is on those who put forth such a theory to prove it conclusively. Those who subscribe to such theories are seldom swayed by such appeals to logic, though.
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CatholicGeek1
Guest
This!
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Lormar
Guest
I can’t recall ever seeing these pictures, and I rubbed shoulders with the type of people who were heavily into this type of stuff for a very long time. Surely, they would have alerted me to this!
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CatholicGeek1
Guest
I think that with many of these theories, it is better to not give them the time and effort to debunk them but let them die on their own, of their own ridiculousness.
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Jeffgo
Guest
Well, considering that Catholics are forbidden from becoming freemasons, I highly doubt that the masons have infiltrated the hierarchy. This document from EWTN should make it clear that the ban on Catholics being freemasons is still in force: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WHATMAS.HTMewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WHATMAS.HTM
Of particular note, the article mentions that John Paul II approved a statement in 1983 that forbade Catholics involved in freemasonry from receiving Holy Communion. That casts some pretty serious doubt on the assertion that JPII was secretly a mason, or something like that.
Of particular note, the article mentions that John Paul II approved a statement in 1983 that forbade Catholics involved in freemasonry from receiving Holy Communion. That casts some pretty serious doubt on the assertion that JPII was secretly a mason, or something like that.
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ready
Guest
Fr. Luigi Villa was a holy Catholic priest in very good standing in the Church, whom Padre Pio and Pope Pius XII commissioned to investigate Freemasonry in the Church. His findings are astounding! Chiesa Viva publishes his works. One can read them online. Fr. Villa just passed away this past November, I believe.
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m134e5
Guest
The Church teaches, for good reason, that Catholics cannot be Freemasons. This issue should be addressed more, as I have yet to hear a word from anyone in the Church- even faithful, knowledgeable clergy and lay theologians- on Freemasonry. All I’ve ever learned about the Church’s position has come from the Catechism, other Catholic books, and the internet. Those points being made, the Catholic Church has its conspiracy theorists just like other groups do. They think being a Freemason is the absolute worst thing a person can be, so it’s their favorite slander against clergy they don’t feel are traditional enough. To answer your question though, we don’t debunk their theory, as it is impossible to reason with them.
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pnewton
Guest
The original question is unanswerable. Think for a minute if one can possibly “prove” that all the advisors around the president are **not **aliens merely posing under the perfect disguise as politicians. (Or politicians disguised as human beings, for that matter).
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Goya
Guest
I saw a picture of Pope John Paul II surrounded by muslims…and kissing the Qu’ran.
Doesn’t mean he’s muslim. Or influenced by muslims.
Doesn’t mean he’s muslim. Or influenced by muslims.
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EricFilmer
Guest
Here’s a rhetorical question:
Objectively speaking, if the Catholic Church has been infiltrated by Freemasons (including in the higher levels of the hierarchy) then why is the Church doing such an incredibly lousy job in promoting Freemasonry?
Consider this in light of the information provided by Jeffgo in Post #6.
Objectively speaking, if the Catholic Church has been infiltrated by Freemasons (including in the higher levels of the hierarchy) then why is the Church doing such an incredibly lousy job in promoting Freemasonry?
Consider this in light of the information provided by Jeffgo in Post #6.
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JReducation
Guest
There is some doubtful information here as well. “Padre Pio . . . commissioned [him] to investigate Freemasonry in the Church.” I’ve been a Franciscan since 1969, the year after Padre Pio died. Padre Pio never held any position of authority within the Franciscan Order or within the Church. In addition, he was one of the most self-effacing friars one could ever meet. The claim that he presumed to have the authority to commission anyone to perform an investigation that only one with jurisdiction can command is absurd.
Friars (brothers) have no jurisdiction over anyone unless that jurisdiction is given to them either by the chapter or by the Holy See. Pio never had such jurisdiction. His jurisdiction was limited to the confessional in his province. That jurisdiction was granted by the Provincial Minister and approved by the diocesan bishop.
Just to prove my point. He lived in a house of formation for novices. He had absolutely no voice in the formation of the novices. He was never part of the formation team. He lived in a friary. He had no voice in the friary. He was never the Guardian or a council member.
To those of you who are laymen, he was bigger than life. To the Franciscans, he was a brother. Where would a brother get the authority to command any kind of investigation of the Church?
How do people come to buy into such nonsense? If you think like a friar, you’ll realize how illogical this is.
Pio may have known of Villa’s work and even expressed approval. That does constitute formal participation in Villa’s work. I can approve of anything without being involved.
I’m sorry, but it bothers me to no end when one of our brothers is accused of things that are impossible for us (Franciscans). It bothers me even more when Catholics believe this stuff. Catholics should understand religious life better than non-Catholics do.
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ShawnEBell
Guest
Well, that’s not quite correct.
Canon 1374 - the Canon which replaced 2335 - removed the restriction against Catholics being members of Freemasonry.
Canon 2335 said: “Those who join a Masonic sect or other societies of the same sort, which plot against the Church or against legitimate civil authority, incur ipso facto an excommunication simply reserved to the Holy See.”
Canon 1374 says “A person who joins an association which plots against the Church is to be punished with a just penalty; one who promotes or takes office in such an association is to be punished with an interdict.”
There was an opinion letter issued from the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (penned by Cardinal Ratzinger), but - unfortunately for those dead set on seeing a social fraternity as a threat to a religion - an opinion letter is just that: an opinion; it doesn’t carry the force or effect of Canon Law.
Fr. Saunders article, “Catholics and the Freemason ‘Religion’” - while interesting reading - is incorrect on virtually every issue.
As a practicing and wholly engaged Catholic - an usher, a liturgical, eucharistic, and extraordinary minister - I serve my Church. As soon as I finish getting my degree, I’ll serve as a Catholic Chaplain wherever I’m needed.
As a Freemason, I attend Lodge and participate as an officer - even serving as Chaplain and Prelate.
If Freemasonry in any way violated Canon 1374, I would have left the social fraternity long ago. Since it doesn’t, I continue to be a member.
Freemasonry isn’t a religion, nor is it a substitute for one.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
If someone is willing to believe our current and last two Holy Fathers are products of some sort of “ultra super secret but everyone knows about it” conspiracy, than I doubt there is anything you can do or show that would change their mind.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
It is so much worse than that!!! The Church has been infiltrated by atheist communist revolutionaries:
http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resource...4894&w=&fh=&fw=&ll=460&pl=300&r=CBRE82R1J3T00
And Muslim Assassins !!!
http://nimg.sulekha.com/others/original700/pope-john-paul-ii-mehmet-ali-agca-2011-4-28-8-51-6.jpg
And Democrats!!!
http://clinton1.nara.gov/White_House/Family/images/raw/pope.gif
And Republicans!!!
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
And Jews!
http://www.jewishjournal.com/images/photos/nw_pope-benedict_041108.jpg
And even the Greek Orthodox!!!
http://worldcrunch.com/images/story/39ab19f9559477c15e5bf7c6156f44de_pope_patriarch.jpg
And Argentinians!!!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Francisco_(20-03-2013).jpg/220px-Francisco_(20-03-2013).jpg
If this keeps up, there won’t be any Catholics left!!!
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Jeffgo
Guest
Cardinal Ratzinger was not merely expressing his personal opinion. He was exercising his authority as Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith to state the proper interpretation of Canon Law, and his interpretation was approved by the supreme pontiff of the Catholic Church, John Paul II. In other words, the Prefect for the CDF (a future pope) and Pope JPII publicly stated that your interpretation of Canon 1374 is incorrect. The original text can be found here: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html
While I don’t doubt that you do a lot of good work in the Masons, and do so with the best of intentions, it’s just a hard fact that the Catholic Church forbids her members from being involved with the Masons.
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Boatswain2PA
Guest
I wish people would apply this same logic when pushing the freemasonry conspiracy theories such as being satanic, striving to “take over the world”, and “throw down the Catholic Church”.
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Joe_5859
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I do.
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Boatswain2PA
Guest
The same question could be asked of those who adamantly say that Freemason’s have infiltrated the Federal government, the EU, NATO, UN, Catholic Church, NASA, DOD, DOJ, all the way down to the Girl Scouts…if the freemason’s are such a powerful (yet secretive) organization, why have they not yet been able to achieve any of their supposedly nefarious goals?
Because it is a conspiracy theory that is full of bunk!
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Boatswain2PA
Guest
Do you push the freemason conspiracy theories that they are satanic, are striving to take over the world, and working to overthrow the Church??I do.
I hope not…
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