Decided to semi-rant

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jesusluv

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I want to know why and how some denominations today have become so liberal.

The United Methodists, Anglican/Episcopal, and the United Churches of Christ are the four I have the biggest beef with really. It has become more of a “feel good” atmosphere for a lot of people in churches today where they want to make everyone happy at the expense of Christian doctrines that have been around for centuries.

I wonder what Henry VII and all his Anglican leaders would think about the church today openly accepting homosexual behavior, transexual priests, a “believe what you want to” doctrine here in the U.S., etc?

I wonder the same of John and Charles Wesley about the Methodist church. Did they envision women and to be more exact lesbian bishops when they began the denomination?

I wonder if the creators of the church of christ way back in 1836(although they claim they are the original church) thought the united church of christ would be the first protestant group to ordain openly gay ministers?

This is not a big gay bashing rant in any way. I realize people of both sexes battle with same sex attraction, but we also know that the Catholic Church teaches this is unnatural and against nature, therefore it cannot be okay to act on these things.

It isn’t just the homosexual issue that I have problems with either. I also can’t fathom why the Episcopal church even has any written doctrine because you don’t have to believe any part of it to be Episcopalian.

Here is a list of protestant churches around the world that ordain openly homosexual people: Anglican: Church of the Province of Southern Africa*, Episcopal Church (USA), Scottish Episcopal Church; Baptist: Alliance of Baptists (USA); Christian: Christian Church (Disciples of Christ); Lutheran: Church of Denmark*, Church of Norway, Church of Sweden*, Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession (Austria), Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland*, Evangelical Lutheran Church in the Kingdom of the Netherlands, United Evangelical Lutheran Church of Germany*; Old Catholic: Old Catholic Church of Austria, Old Catholic Church in the Netherlands*, Old Catholic Diocese of Germany*; Reformed and United: Evangelical Church of the Helvetic Confession (Austria), Evangelical Church of the Union (Germany), Evangelical Reformed Church (Germany), Evangelical Reformed Churches of Switzerland*, Evangelical Waldensian Church (Italy), Netherlands Reformed Church, Reformed Churches in the Netherlands, Remonstrant Brotherhood (Netherlands), Uniting Church in Australia, United Church of Canada, United Church of Christ (USA), United Protestant Church of Belgium

Please add whatever for and against my venting session and I hope I offended no one, these things were just on my mind.
 
When you remove your mooring from the Rock you can drift anywhere. As Catholic we have members who would like to see us cut our mooring as well.
 
It must be devastating to see a church that you love become corrupt. I can kind of relate because the fact that this is happening is a “sign of the times” , and the corruption is evident in society at large…and I see it as a symptom of what is wrong in general.

As a Catholic I see it as a hope. A hope for Unity…certainly the good Angelicas of the world will look to Rome and see a Church that will not sway to changes in society. Unfortunately, if it’s not happening in “my” church a lot of folks won’t budge, and the Methodists for instance, are not having a loud upheaval as of yet (that I can see), there is a disconnect between churches.

I was shocked to see the United Church of Christ on your list. I always thought of that Church as conservative. It is a sad thing.
 
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MommaKat:
When you remove your mooring from the Rock you can drift anywhere. As Catholic we have members who would like to see us cut our mooring as well.
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Very much agree. If you’re not moored you’re pretty much going to drift along with the cultural waves, as so many denoms seem to be doing. Right now, the regnant idea in the culture is a false non-judgementalism, that is, “we may not judge others unless we deem them judgemental, at which time, we may judge them all we want.”

Only the Church and certain conservative evangelical groups seem able to make the distinction between judging/condemning behavior and judging/condemning people. The Church only does the former, but is accused of the latter, and is hence seen as “intolerant”- the very worst thing you can be in the present social climate, and, well, not to be tolerated by the tolerant.
 
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Lillith:
I was shocked to see the United Church of Christ on your list. I always thought of that Church as conservative. It is a sad thing.
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It is important to note that the UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST is a DIFFERENT denomination from the CHURCH OF CHRIST.

The United Church of Christ was a mid/late 20th century merger between many congregational churches and many Dutch Reformed churches. (Typically, the more liberal ones!)

The Church of Christ is a quasi-Baptist body dating to the mid-19th century (their own claims notwithstanding) and tends toward the conservative, even fundamentalist. They also do not permit instrumental music of any sort in their worship.

But these are two VERY different denominations!
 
David Zampino:
It is important to note that the UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST is a DIFFERENT denomination from the CHURCH OF CHRIST.

The United Church of Christ was a mid/late 20th century merger between many congregational churches and many Dutch Reformed churches. (Typically, the more liberal ones!)

The Church of Christ is a quasi-Baptist body dating to the mid-19th century (their own claims notwithstanding) and tends toward the conservative, even fundamentalist. They also do not permit instrumental music of any sort in their worship.

But these are two VERY different denominations!
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Thank you David…Now that makes sense to me 👍
 
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Lillith:
It must be devastating to see a church that you love become corrupt. I can kind of relate because the fact that this is happening is a “sign of the times” , and the corruption is evident in society at large…and I see it as a symptom of what is wrong in general.

As a Catholic I see it as a hope. A hope for Unity…
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👍 Amen!“Lord, to whom shall we go?”
John 6:68
 
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Maranatha:
Can you expand on your statement. Thanks!
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As with all things corrupt…or seemingly corrupt…or out-of-whack - follow the money trail and you’ll find your answers.

It’s been my experience in reading the papers and following stories over the years that when it comes down to it, people within organizations cave into the lure of money and the power it seemingly provides.

Christian Scientology is a good example.

Heck, Planned Parenthood’s success within organizations and government agencies one would never imagine would go their way is a great example.

Even within the Catholic Church…if we take heart to the thread elsewhere on the boards which raised the issue about Jacqueline Kennedy getting a Catholic funeral, and ashes dispersed over sea is a good example too.

Come to think of it, the same goes for the Republican and Democrat parties…they are so not what they started out to be back in the day…thanks to the love for money.

If we were to look into the organizational structure of any of the churches the OP mentioned…found out who held which positions of authority…who, in the congregations contributed the most money for buildings, programs, salaries, etc…looked into the social beliefs of those people - and those of the financial officers of the organizations…I suspect one will be able to understand just how these organizations came to be ‘swayed’ in their positions on moral issues.
 
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YinYangMom:
As with all things corrupt…or seemingly corrupt…or out-of-whack - follow the money trail and you’ll find your answers.

It’s been my experience in reading the papers and following stories over the years that when it comes down to it, people within organizations cave into the lure of money and the power it seemingly provides.

Christian Scientology is a good example.

Heck, Planned Parenthood’s success within organizations and government agencies one would never imagine would go their way is a great example.

Even within the Catholic Church…if we take heart to the thread elsewhere on the boards which raised the issue about Jacqueline Kennedy getting a Catholic funeral, and ashes dispersed over sea is a good example too.

Come to think of it, the same goes for the Republican and Democrat parties…they are so not what they started out to be back in the day…thanks to the love for money.

If we were to look into the organizational structure of any of the churches the OP mentioned…found out who held which positions of authority…who, in the congregations contributed the most money for buildings, programs, salaries, etc…looked into the social beliefs of those people - and those of the financial officers of the organizations…I suspect one will be able to understand just how these organizations came to be ‘swayed’ in their positions on moral issues.
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YinYangMom:

Very well put, but I think you might have left out one of the best examples - Cardinal Mahony almost never mentions Abortion, Euthansia, Human Cloning, Gay Marraige or Fetal Stem Cell Research. In fact, he and his Cathedral Guards recently tried to bar the “Catholic Crusaders” from the services that were held for Antonio Villarigosa (a very Pro-Abortion politician).

The Cathedral was built largely with money from Pro-Abortion politicians and business persons… He could have done something that wouldn’t have required the “Blood-Money”, but his ego needed the monument known as the “Taj-Mahony”.

We don’t have to look over the fence to find the corruption. It’s right there in the Chancelery Office waiting for His Holiness to do a good “Spring Cleaning”. The sooner the better!

In Christ, Michael
 
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jesusluv:
I wonder what Henry VII and all his Anglican leaders would think about the church today
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AFAIK, in his own mind Henry VIII remained a good Catholic till the end of his life. There was no English Mass in his days; it was all in Latin, and he didn’t change that.
 
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buzzcut:
AFAIK, in his own mind Henry VIII remained a good Catholic till the end of his life. There was no English Mass in his days; it was all in Latin, and he didn’t change that.
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That fact is the reason I think he is turning in his grave right now looking at “his” church.
 
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jesusluv:
That fact is the reason I think he is turning in his grave right now looking at “his” church.
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jesusluv:

This would probably make him feel bettter about a part of “his” Church:

September 28, 2005 - Anglicans seeking communion

*The Traditional Anglican Communion is a small step closer to reestablishing unity with the Roman Catholic Church after a separation of five centuries.

Leaders of the Anglican Church in America, one of the 44 national churches in the conservative body, were in Portland this week considering a plan to begin formal conversations with the Roman Catholic Church about establishing intercommunion.

“It is a quest of being a single Eucharistic community,” said Archbishop John Hepworth, the spiritual head of the Traditional Anglican Communion. “It would mean Roman Catholic people could receive communion in our churches and we could receive it in theirs.”*

amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2005/09/anglicans_seeki.html

It’s not the full swim that some of us have been pushing for, but given certain situations, this may be the best we can hope for, right now.

And, this seems to have Pope Benedict XVI’s blessing.

Pax Vobiscum, Michael
 
Traditional Ang:
the “Taj-Mahony”.
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Traditional Ang, don’t EVER do that when I am drinking something! I have just recovered my breath after gagging and laughing at the same time, while my drink went up my nose!

“The Taj Mahony.” That has got to be the funniest thing I have read in ages on these message boards. Thank you, Traditional Ang, for making my day 🙂
 
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AnglicanRite:
Traditional Ang, don’t EVER do that when I am drinking something! I have just recovered my breath after gagging and laughing at the same time, while my drink went up my nose!

“The Taj Mahony.” That has got to be the funniest thing I have read in ages on these message boards. Thank you, Traditional Ang, for making my day 🙂
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AnglicanRite:

That’s what it’s known as around here.

A certain CATHOLIC Author who used to attend St. Mary’s who’s still a friend of one of the parishioners came up with that one when they were building the thing.

There are other churches that are uglier, but I doubt that any of those buildings cost more money to build.

Goodnight, Michael
 
Traditional Ang:
jesusluv:

This would probably make him feel bettter about a part of “his” Church:

September 28, 2005 - Anglicans seeking communion

*The Traditional Anglican Communion is a small step closer to reestablishing unity with the Roman Catholic Church after a separation of five centuries.

Leaders of the Anglican Church in America, one of the 44 national churches in the conservative body, were in Portland this week considering a plan to begin formal conversations with the Roman Catholic Church about establishing intercommunion.

“It is a quest of being a single Eucharistic community,” said Archbishop John Hepworth, the spiritual head of the Traditional Anglican Communion. “It would mean Roman Catholic people could receive communion in our churches and we could receive it in theirs.”*

amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2005/09/anglicans_seeki.html

It’s not the full swim that some of us have been pushing for, but given certain situations, this may be the best we can hope for, right now.

And, this seems to have Pope Benedict XVI’s blessing.

Pax Vobiscum, Michael
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I pray that this comes to fruition.
 
Traditional Ang:
Leaders of the Anglican Church in America … plan to begin formal conversations with the Roman Catholic Church about establishing intercommunion.

“It is a quest of being a single Eucharistic community,” said Archbishop John Hepworth, the spiritual head of the Traditional Anglican Communion. “It would mean Roman Catholic people could receive communion in our churches and we could receive it in theirs.”
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Hepworth is dreaming.

Intercommunion isn’t possible between the Catholic Church and a Protestant denomination such as the TAC. The “Eucharist” of the TAC is not only illicit, it is invalid because of the invalidity of the TAC priesthood. Catholics would only be receiving a piece of bread in the TAC, not the real presence of Christ.

I know that there are a few priests to be found in the TAC that are validly ordained who are exceptions to the general invalidity of the TAC priesthood (such as Hepworth who was ordained as a Latin Rite priest of the Catholic Church).

Hepworth is doing a disservice to everyone by continuing to raise these false hopes. 😦 In no way can a Protestant denomination such as the TAC can be likened to the PNC, or the Eastern Orthodox. The PNC and the Eastern Orthodox has vaild orders, and the TAC does not.
 
I think that citing the moral authority of a King who had wives put to death for his own convenience is rather ironic.
 
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Matt16_18:
Hepworth is dreaming.

Intercommunion isn’t possible between the Catholic Church and a Protestant denomination such as the TAC. The “Eucharist” of the TAC is not only illicit, it is invalid because of the invalidity of the TAC priesthood. Catholics would only be receiving a piece of bread in the TAC, not the real presence of Christ.

I know that there are a few priests to be found in the TAC that are validly ordained who are exceptions to the general invalidity of the TAC priesthood (such as Hepworth who was ordained as a Latin Rite priest of the Catholic Church).

Hepworth is doing a disservice to everyone by continuing to raise these false hopes. 😦 In no way can a Protestant denomination such as the TAC can be likened to the PNC, or the Eastern Orthodox. The PNC and the Eastern Orthodox has vaild orders, and the TAC does not.
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I think that you will find that the bishops of the TAC have PNC and other valid but illicit Old Catholic orders. This will be a case very similar to when Dr. Graham Leonard, Anglican bishop of London converted. It was recognized that he held an Old Catholic line of succession and was therefore “conditionally” ordained, rather than absolutely ordained.
 
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