Declaration of Nullity (Annulment) Set Back...Advice Needed

[AmyMarie71]

Both me and my significant other are practicing catholics in our mid 30’s but he is divorced going on 3 years now. Neither one of us have children and I, myself, have never been married. I have posted on this topic before but now disturbing information has been given to him by the archdiocese about his annulment proceedings.

His initial interview took place 3 months ago at the archdiocese and he was specific in telling the interviewer that he and his immediate family are not on speaking terms. He has tried to reconcile but his family is not willing. He mentioned this due to the fact that witnesses are needed in order to start proceedings. He has been able to get 1 witness and 2 character witnesses to date. The letter from the Tribunal basically told him that he does not have a case with just one witness and that witness’s testimony was vague. What is funny is that they accepted his case under 2 (not just 1) Cannon Laws that his case would be tried under.

We are both concerned because as most married couples, he did not make it common practice to announce to everyone that they were having problems. This one witness and his immediate family are the only people who knew. The archdiocese said that he needs at least 2 more witnesses and this is impossible.

I would like to know what happens when someone is in a predicament such as this? What happens, lets say, if there is someone seeking a Decree of Nullity and his family and witnesses are deceased? Or friends have moved away and cannot be found? How shall a person get a Decree of Nullity in that situation? My significant other can actually be put in that same category, for he is considered dead to his family.

Your advice would be helpfull.

God Bless!

 

[PhilotheaZ]

He probably should hire a canon lawyer to assist him. This is too important to entrust to a bunch of well-meaning amateurs on an internet forum.

 

[Ruthie]

What I can tell you is that it is possible to get an annulment with only one witness.

In my case, though, it was the passage of time, and moving away that caused the problem. (It was 35 years between wedding and annulment application, and both my ex and me were thousands of miles away from where our wedding took place.)

The main thing is to convince the Tribunal that you have good and solid reasons for the lack of witnesses, and have patience. It will take a while.

HTH,

Ruthie

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Both me and my significant other are practicing catholics in our mid 30’s but he is divorced going on 3 years now. Neither one of us have children and I, myself, have never been married. I have posted on this topic before but now disturbing information has been given to him by the archdiocese about his annulment proceedings.

His initial interview took place 3 months ago at the archdiocese and he was specific in telling the interviewer that he and his immediate family are not on speaking terms. He has tried to reconcile but his family is not willing. He mentioned this due to the fact that witnesses are needed in order to start proceedings. He has been able to get 1 witness and 2 character witnesses to date. The letter from the Tribunal basically told him that he does not have a case with just one witness and that witness’s testimony was vague. What is funny is that they accepted his case under 2 (not just 1) Cannon Laws that his case would be tried under.

We are both concerned because as most married couples, he did not make it common practice to announce to everyone that they were having problems. This one witness and his immediate family are the only people who knew. The archdiocese said that he needs at least 2 more witnesses and this is impossible.

I would like to know what happens when someone is in a predicament such as this? What happens, lets say, if there is someone seeking a Decree of Nullity and his family and witnesses are deceased? Or friends have moved away and cannot be found? How shall a person get a Decree of Nullity in that situation? My significant other can actually be put in that same category, for he is considered dead to his family.

Your advice would be helpfull.

God Bless!

How shall a person get a Decree of Nullity in that situation?
A person does not “get a Decree of Nullity”. a person simply asks the church tribunal to review the Circumstances leading up to, and the celebration of, the Marriage, to determine if it was lacking in any way or not. His witnesses do not need to have details of their problems necessarly during the time they were together. They do need to have known one or both of the during the time before and at the time of the wedding.

 

[AmyMarie71]

He probably should hire a canon lawyer to assist him. This is too important to entrust to a bunch of well-meaning amateurs on an internet forum.

Do you know of any assistance that is available through the church (parishes, archdiocese)? Legal aid or free services? He is having a hard enough time trying to find the funds for the cost of the annulment let alone now go and hire a cannon lawyer. Catholic Charities is available for some free services so why not this?

I see that you are also from Pennsylvania so maybe your information can help since we are in the same state.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Let me see if I can put this on context for you. In order to grant a decree of nullity the Church needs to be certain that no marriage took place. The only way to do that is through the testimony of witnesses. While it is certainly possible to accept a case based upon what the petitioner presents, it’s very difficult to move forward with only the one presentation.

This is a case where your “significant other” will need to work with those who are witnesses in order to get them to respond.

I will say that I helped a person out with a case that actually went all the way through with just one witness, but it was a case where a great period of time had elapsed and the only other witness was senile. Given the reliability of the one witness the tribunal moved forward. In your case, however, the tribunal is saying that the one witness has not given sufficiently sound evidence to move the case forward.

If I were working with you on this, I would suggest going back to the witnesses and working to get them to respond as completely and honestly as possible.

Deacon Ed

 

[AmyMarie71]

How shall a person get a Decree of Nullity in that situation?
A person does not “get a Decree of Nullity”. a person simply asks the church tribunal to review the Circumstances leading up to, and the celebration of, the Marriage, to determine if it was lacking in any way or not. His witnesses do not need to have details of their problems necessarly during the time they were together. They do need to have known one or both of the during the time before and at the time of the wedding.

Like I said before, he has only one witness and now 2 character witnesses. The only other people that knew both himself and his wife during the time before and during the time of the wedding were his family. His family and himself are not speaking and they are unwilling to reconcile.

So, I ask again, how can one then possibly be awarded a Decree of Nullity in his circumstances? The letter he received from the Msgr. plainly says that his one witness was vague and more witnesses are needed for this to move forward and this is impossible. There is no one else. I guess even maybe a second meeting would be called for or maybe they would accept more character witnesses.

You also said that a person SIMPLY asks the tribunal to review the circumstances…well, there is nothing SIMPLE about it.

 

[AmyMarie71]

Let me see if I can put this on context for you. In order to grant a decree of nullity the Church needs to be certain that no marriage took place. The only way to do that is through the testimony of witnesses. While it is certainly possible to accept a case based upon what the petitioner presents, it’s very difficult to move forward with only the one presentation.

This is a case where your “significant other” will need to work with those who are witnesses in order to get them to respond.

I will say that I helped a person out with a case that actually went all the way through with just one witness, but it was a case where a great period of time had elapsed and the only other witness was senile. Given the reliability of the one witness the tribunal moved forward. In your case, however, the tribunal is saying that the one witness has not given sufficiently sound evidence to move the case forward.

If I were working with you on this, I would suggest going back to the witnesses and working to get them to respond as completely and honestly as possible.

Deacon Ed

I seriously wish it was that easy. He has already tried to reconcile with them twice and the second time when he asked them to fill out the questionnaires, they were hateful. The only alternative is that he is going to write to the Msgr. at the Tribunal and ask them if they would mail questionnaires to his family directly. Maybe then they will cooperate if they know it is coming from the Tribunal directly.

I am still at awe as to how people who ask for a Decree of Nullity after being civilly divorced for 15, 20, even 30 years with no living witnesses or witnesses that cannot be found be granted one whereas at least my significant other has 1 witness (even though vague) and 2 character witnesses (which he can get more if need be)

 

[Deacon_Ed]

In general a character witness is useless. What the tribunal needs to establish is whether or not a marriage was established when the vows were exchanged. That is something that they cannot determine from a “character witness.”

And, yes, normally the questionnaires do come directly from the tribunal to the witnesses. I’m surprised if that is not the case there.

Deacon Ed

 

[Just_Lurking]

In general a character witness is useless.

Here is a section of a document (see here) by the Pennsylvania bishops arguing that resorting to the internal forum is never necessary precisely because character witnesses can be used when there are no actual witnesses to the cause of nullity:

For similar reasons, the use of the so-called “internal forum solution” for cases of divorced-and-remarried persons who are personally convinced that their previous marriage was invalid is unacceptable, unnecessary and pastorally unsound. The canonical judicial procedures established by the Code of Canon Law to examine claims that a previous marriage was invalid are, in our view, comprehensive and responsive enough to declare invalid all marriages which truly are. As Msgr. Mario F. Pompedda, now dean of the Rota, remarked: "It would be purely academic to hypothesize about the existence of cases in which moral certitude could be reached only in the internal forum, that is, in conscience; such would be so rare that they should be considered practically nonexistent."12 This is especially true since Canon 1536.2, combined with Canon 1679, allows tribunals to grant a declaration of nullity, in the absence of other “objective” proofs of a previous marriage’s invalidity, on the basis of personal depositions of the parties themselves. The canons, however, further require that these personal depositions of the parties be corroborated by character witnesses for the parties, if possible, and by other relevant facts and supporting evidence (Indicia Adminicula).13 These canons were added to the Code of Canon Law when it was revised in 1983 precisely to address cases in which proofs of invalidity-other than the declaration of the parties-are not available. Their presence in the code refutes one of the principal arguments for the use of the so-called “internal forum solution,” making any use of it unnecessary and unacceptable.

 

[kage_ar]

From what I understand, he needs to be able to provide witnesses who knew HIM before and at the time of the wedding. His buddies, the guys who stood up for him at the wedding, the guys who threw his bachelor party, were they all his family?

When I was a witness, the paperwork came to me directly from a tribunal. The questions were about my knowledge and memory of the person I know, I was not expected to answer about the party I did not know.

 

[cecilia97]

Both me and my significant other are practicing catholics in our mid 30’s but he is divorced going on 3 years now. Neither one of us have children and I, myself, have never been married. I have posted on this topic before but now disturbing information has been given to him by the archdiocese about his annulment proceedings.

His initial interview took place 3 months ago at the archdiocese and he was specific in telling the interviewer that he and his immediate family are not on speaking terms. He has tried to reconcile but his family is not willing. He mentioned this due to the fact that witnesses are needed in order to start proceedings. He has been able to get 1 witness and 2 character witnesses to date. The letter from the Tribunal basically told him that he does not have a case with just one witness and that witness’s testimony was vague. What is funny is that they accepted his case under 2 (not just 1) Cannon Laws that his case would be tried under.

We are both concerned because as most married couples, he did not make it common practice to announce to everyone that they were having problems. This one witness and his immediate family are the only people who knew. The archdiocese said that he needs at least 2 more witnesses and this is impossible.

I would like to know what happens when someone is in a predicament such as this? What happens, lets say, if there is someone seeking a Decree of Nullity and his family and witnesses are deceased? Or friends have moved away and cannot be found? How shall a person get a Decree of Nullity in that situation? My significant other can actually be put in that same category, for he is considered dead to his family.

Your advice would be helpfull.

God Bless!

First off, dear, I will be praying for y’all.

Are there no friends who can be witnesses for him? Friends from before or after the wedding? From before are best but I guess beggars can’t be choosers. Witness do NOT have to be family. Aunts, uncles, Grandma, best man?

I’m sure most couples don’t broadcast their troubles. I didn’t, but it was still amazing to me how my testimony and my witnesses’ matched up. They did not have the whole picture like I did, but they had picked up on enough things over the years to make it clear I was not outright lying in my own testimony. The Tribunal has seen that situation many times, believe me.

I’d second the advice about a lawyer, and I would start asking EVERYBODY to be a witness. Ask the stinkin’ dog!

It is stressful, I know. Please try to rest in God’s arms. He will take care of you both.

 

[cecilia97]

And, yes, normally the questionnaires do come directly from the tribunal to the witnesses. I’m surprised if that is not the case there.

Deacon Ed

True! In our archdiocese we just list the addresses and names and the Tribunal sends the questionnaires.

 

[dulcissima]

Kind of OT, but I think you should be concerned about a significant other who is not on speaking terms with his family. That should be a giant red flag that needs to be thoroughly investigated.

 

[cecilia97]

Like I said before, he has only one witness and now 2 character witnesses. The only other people that knew both himself and his wife during the time before and during the time of the wedding were his family. His family and himself are not speaking and they are unwilling to reconcile.

This confuses me. When did the character witnesses know him? I was not under the impression that all witnesses had to know BOTH parties before AND after the wedding. Some people have witnesses that only knew the one spouse. I had one witness who only knew me after the wedding.

So, given some of that, could the character witnesses be “converted” over to regular witnesses?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Like I said before, he has only one witness and now 2 character witnesses. The only other people that knew both himself and his wife during the time before and during the time of the wedding were his family. His family and himself are not speaking and they are unwilling to reconcile.

So, I ask again, how can one then possibly be awarded a Decree of Nullity in his circumstances? The letter he received from the Msgr. plainly says that his one witness was vague and more witnesses are needed for this to move forward and this is impossible. There is no one else. I guess even maybe a second meeting would be called for or maybe they would accept more character witnesses.

You also said that a person SIMPLY asks the tribunal to review the circumstances…well, there is nothing SIMPLE about it.

So, I ask again, how can one then possibly be awarded a Decree of Nullity in his circumstances?

By providing the tribunal sufficient evidence or access to evidence, that circumstances at the time of the wedding did not allow a valid Marriage to take place or that the persons were incapable of entering into a valid Marriage at the time of the wedding.

 

[AmyMarie71]

Kind of OT, but I think you should be concerned about a significant other who is not on speaking terms with his family. That should be a giant red flag that needs to be thoroughly investigated.

Yes, it has been thoroughly investigated and at one time, I was on the phone with him when this all went down. One incident was when he could not afford to help out a family member with money issues anymore and they said that if he cannot afford it and make family first, then he was selfish and is no longer welcome in their home. HMMM …who was actually being selfish? Not him!!!

 

[bilop]

Both me and my significant other are practicing catholics in our mid 30’s but he is divorced going on 3 years now. Neither one of us have children and I, myself, have never been married. I have posted on this topic before but now disturbing information has been given to him by the archdiocese about his annulment proceedings.

His initial interview took place 3 months ago at the archdiocese and he was specific in telling the interviewer that he and his immediate family are not on speaking terms. He has tried to reconcile but his family is not willing. He mentioned this due to the fact that witnesses are needed in order to start proceedings. He has been able to get 1 witness and 2 character witnesses to date. The letter from the Tribunal basically told him that he does not have a case with just one witness and that witness’s testimony was vague. What is funny is that they accepted his case under 2 (not just 1) Cannon Laws that his case would be tried under.

We are both concerned because as most married couples, he did not make it common practice to announce to everyone that they were having problems. This one witness and his immediate family are the only people who knew. The archdiocese said that he needs at least 2 more witnesses and this is impossible.

I would like to know what happens when someone is in a predicament such as this? What happens, lets say, if there is someone seeking a Decree of Nullity and his family and witnesses are deceased? Or friends have moved away and cannot be found? How shall a person get a Decree of Nullity in that situation? My significant other can actually be put in that same category, for he is considered dead to his family.

Your advice would be helpfull.

God Bless!

Amy Marie,

I would think part of the issue is that the witnesses are not unavailable (deceased, senile, etc.) they are just not being presented. This may cause the tribunal to wonder why the are not testifying.

Ask the tribunal to contact his family directly. At least then they will know he is not trying to hide something.

God Bless

 

[AmyMarie71]

So, I ask again, how can one then possibly be awarded a Decree of Nullity in his circumstances?

By providing the tribunal sufficient evidence or access to evidence, that circumstances at the time of the wedding did not allow a valid Marriage to take place or that the persons were incapable of entering into a valid Marriage at the time of the wedding.

OK, one of the instances was fraud. His wife was a thief and concealed it or he would have never married her. He found out when she stole from her place of employment not that long AFTER they were married. This was her second offense and he never knew of the first. All of this information is public record and available through the county court house. Right there the Tribunal has ACCESS TO EVIDENCE. She was also concealing mental illness (manic depressive disorder) which he never knew about. He has proof that she was seeing a shrink by an old receipt. There, again, the Tribunal has ACCESS TO EVIDENCE!

Now maybe you can understand our confusion.

 

[bilop]

OK, one of the instances was fraud. His wife was a thief and concealed it or he would have never married her. He found out when she stole from her place of employment not that long AFTER they were married. This was her second offense and he never knew of the first. All of this information is public record and available through the county court house. Right there the Tribunal has ACCESS TO EVIDENCE. She was also concealing mental illness (manic depressive disorder) which he never knew about. He has proof that she was seeing a shrink by an old receipt. There, again, the Tribunal has ACCESS TO EVIDENCE!

Now maybe you can understand our confusion.

Have you provided them the public records?

You probably also need to have a witness to say that your husband didn’t know these things before hand.

God Bless