Declaration of Pope Francis and Archbishop Justin Welby

[Don_Ruggero]

I see the protestant rebellion from the Church of Christ as a very bad thing not just for Christianity but for England particularly.

We are blessed to live in an era that has repudiated such polemical language.

Pope Saint John Paul II expressed it very well in Ut Unum Sint.
Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ
When I actually hear a lay person use such an antiquated expression, such as rebellion, that was abandoned decades ago, it always reminds me of one of my favorite turns of phrase that went into From Conflict to Communion…
*238. Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside. Thus, Lutherans and Catholics identify five imperatives as they commemorate 2017 together. *
There are solitary people here and there who can obstinately hold on to polemical thoughts of centuries past…but the Roman Catholic Church does not hold such thoughts today precisely because Rome does not hold them…and that is what matters.

 

[Upgrade25]

This planning for this commemoration began under Pope Benedict. I remember when the planning began. There was such excitement that it was being planned under a German Pope.

The initiatives we see today go back to the Council, which marked a new era and a turning of the page…thanks be to God.

I don’t really remember Pope Benedict. I just remember being a 6th grader in cathechism class when we heard that Pope Francis was elected in the conclave. Then we watched a toon about St. Francis, may he pray for us.

I’m sure Rome, to whom I am obedient, has its heart in the right place, even if I disagree on prudential matters of which I don’t know about in life experience to make a judgement on. It just doesn’t make sense that we’d celebrate material heresy. I understand they(Protestants) think they are doing nothing wrong, but it still smells funny.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I don’t really remember Pope Benedict. I just remember being a 6th grader in cathechism class when we heard that Pope Francis was elected in the conclave. Then we watched a toon about St. Francis, may he pray for us.

I’m sure Rome, to whom I am obedient, has its heart in the right place, even if I disagree on prudential matters of which I don’t know about in life experience to make a judgement on. It just doesn’t make sense that we’d celebrate material heresy. I understand they(Protestants) think they are doing nothing wrong, but it still smells funny.

Well…at 14, give yourself the time to study both theology and Church history at the undergraduate and graduate level.

Across the years, I have been pleased to see the advance in scholarship in the fields touched by these topics. The academics of the next generation that are working have many advantages the previous generation lacked. They will do very well.

 

[prodromos]

Standing side by side to bless.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/...DyJMojtbE029uPw_rygKZnoDjumvl-lgUNT_j0Cbk.jpg

I am perplexed as to what is symbolised by the patterns on his vestments

 

[pnewton]

P.S. Sorry if I’m being a downer (I even felt like a downer when posting the preceding) but after reading the OP I couldn’t help thinking:.

You are not being a downer about this, I do not think, but more in anticipation of the old “more Catholic than the Pope” comments you knew would come. Internet conversations will always include an over representation of those who are more extreme and emotional about a topic. People who are just sort of “meh” do not take time to say anything. I am posting because I am on the extreme of just loving this pope. He is truly amazing. I am so happy to be living in a time of ecumenism. It has to be better than living when all the fracturing was going on or when some of the popes, … let me just say they weren’t the caliber we have had in the last hundred years.

 

[Shirtless]

I couldn’t. Heresy is not worthy of celebration in my mind. But though I disagree with the prudential actions of the Pope sometimes, I get where he’s coming from, and don’t want to disobey the Church. He speaks from a language of love for Christ grown by years of prayer and sacrifice, of which I know only the words, not the heart.

First of all, it is never improper to maintain friendly relations or to keep lines of communication open with anyone, if that can be accomplished without sacrifice of principle. Secondly, although I think Anglicans chose the wrong path, as confirmed by certain positions they have taken recently, it is important to view the separation of Rome and Canterbury in historical perspective.

From the Catholic point of view, the See of Canterbury has been vacant since 1559 (the last Roman Catholic Archbishop of Canterbury was Reginald Pole), which is the year of the so-called Elizabethan Settlement.

Queen Elizabeth I succeeded her half-sister, Mary I (Bloody Mary), and Elizabeth strongly desired to put the religious question to rest. Elizabeth I could hardly be expected to choose Catholicism, because the Catholic church regarded her as the illegitimate offspring of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn. Elizabeth I did, however, work out a compromise between the high church and low church factions within the Anglican movement, allowing both groups to exist within the Church of England.

In many ways, England, and indirectly, the United States, are extremely fortunate that Mary I died without having children, and that the royal succession therefore passed to her half-sister, Elizabeth. Mary I, the daughter of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon, was half Spanish, and she was married to Philip, the King of Spain. If their children had inherited the English throne, England would have been reduced to the status of a Spanish province, and it is extremely unlikely that democratic ideals would have taken hold in England or that the United States would have come into existence in the form we know it today. One of Elizabeth I’s great accomplishments is that she defeated the Spanish Armada and secured the independent existence of English-speaking peoples.

It is sad the Anglicans rejected Communion with Rome in the process. They should have worked out something similar to the Union of Brest, signed in 1595-1596,by which the Ukrainian Catholics came into communion with Rome, while at the same time being able to maintain their own liturgy and other disciplines. I am Ukrainian Catholic, and our pastor is married and has three children, and we are in communion with Rome, and as fully Catholic as any other.

 

[Rosebud77]

Some of these posts make me sad. I was raised Church of England and was there much of my adult life and always fine truly Christian people of sterling faith and character…

ComplinSanFran… thank you for that first photo especially, a lovely sight indeed that cheers me, THANK YOU!

 

[Wannano]

We are blessed to live in an era that has repudiated such polemical language.

Pope Saint John Paul II expressed it very well in Ut Unum Sint.
Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ
When I actually hear a lay person use such an antiquated expression, such as rebellion, that was abandoned decades ago, it always reminds me of one of my favorite turns of phrase that went into From Conflict to Communion…
238. Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside. Thus, Lutherans and Catholics identify five imperatives as they commemorate 2017 together.
There are solitary people here and there who can obstinately hold on to polemical thoughts of centuries past…but the Roman Catholic Church does not hold such thoughts today precisely because Rome does not hold them…and that is what matters.

Thank you for helping this thick skull understand. I recently reacted to a comment in another post that stated " Protestants followed their error into theological darkness." I have a hard time remembering that statements being currently made like this by people who should know better are not worth responding to.

 

[Peter_J]

We are blessed to live in an era that has repudiated such polemical language.

Pope Saint John Paul II expressed it very well in Ut Unum Sint.
Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ

Good quote … though, of course, traditionalist Catholics don’t like JPII either.

When I actually hear a lay person use such an antiquated expression, such as rebellion, that was abandoned decades ago, it always reminds me of one of my favorite turns of phrase that went into From Conflict to Communion…
238. Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside. Thus, Lutherans and Catholics identify five imperatives as they commemorate 2017 together.
There are solitary people here and there who can obstinately hold on to polemical thoughts of centuries past…but the Roman Catholic Church does not hold such thoughts today precisely because Rome does not hold them…and that is what matters.

statements being currently made like this by people who should know better are not worth responding to.

Sadly, though, the habit of many (most?) Protestant posters is to gravitate toward such a post and partner up with its author.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Thank you for helping this thick skull understand. I recently reacted to a comment in another post that stated " Protestants followed their error into theological darkness." I have a hard time remembering that statements being currently made like this by people who should know better are not worth responding to.

Well said and I heartily agree.

 

[Contarini]

P.S. Sorry if I’m being a downer (I even felt like a downer when posting the preceding) but after reading the OP I couldn’t help thinking: go to any discussion forum on the internet and what do you see? Anti-Catholic posts from Protestants. Anti-Protestant posts from Catholics. More potent than a little photograph.

And discussion forums are thriving.

Well, some 10,000+ of the posts on this forum have been written by yours truly, pretty consistently in service of the kind of attitude represented by this photo. And of course I’m not the only one–just blowing my own horn a bit.

Edwin

 

[Peter_J]

Well, some 10,000+ of the posts on this forum have been written by yours truly, pretty consistently in service of the kind of attitude represented by this photo. And of course I’m not the only one–just blowing my own horn a bit.

Edwin

You’re right. When I said “Anti-Catholic posts from Protestants”, I was referring to Protestant forums.

 

[commenter]

It would be wrong to criticize the talks between the Vatican and C of E, or with ELCA, or to minimize their importance.

*** The conflicts of the 16 century are mostly resolved. **

It is also important to recognize the current context:

*** The conflicts of the late 20th and 21st century are not getting resolved They are growing due to drift on doctrinal and moral issues by the C of E and ELCA. **

The C of E and ELCA may well be coming closer to each other, but both are moving farther and farther from Rome, as well as from traditional elements within Anglicanism and Lutheranism. That doesn’t mean the talks are worthless. The Vatican has tried to maintain communication with a multitude of religious, political, and other types of movements; the talks go on even when the Vatican and the other partner are moving farther apart.

Lets say the C of E and ELCA each take 5 steps away from Rome during a time period. But wait, the ecumenism programs each bring them 1 step closer to Rome during that time period. Thus, the net increase in distance apart is only 4 steps, not the 5 steps it would have been without the ecumenical program.

 

[GKC]

It would be wrong to criticize the talks between the Vatican and C of E, or with ELCA, or to minimize their importance.

*** The conflicts of the 16 century are mostly resolved. **

It is also important to recognize the current context:

*** The conflicts of the late 20th and 21st century are not** getting resolved They are growing due to drift on doctrinal and moral issues by the C of E and ELCA.

The C of E and ELCA may well be coming closer to each other, but both are moving farther and farther from Rome, as well as from traditional elements within Anglicanism and Lutheranism. That doesn’t mean the talks are worthless. The Vatican has tried to maintain communication with a multitude of religious, political, and other types of movements; the talks go on even when the Vatican and the other partner are moving farther apart.

Lets say the C of E and ELCA each take 5 steps away from Rome during a time period. But wait, the ecumenism programs each bring them 1 step closer to Rome during that time period. Thus, the net increase in distance apart is only 4 steps, not the 5 steps it would have been without the ecumenical program.

True.

 

[Rosebud77]

P.S. Sorry if I’m being a downer (I even felt like a downer when posting the preceding) but after reading the OP I couldn’t help thinking: go to any discussion forum on the internet and what do you see? Anti-Catholic posts from Protestants. Anti-Protestant posts from Catholics. More potent than a little photograph.

And discussion forums are thriving.

Well, there is no obligation to read threads like that, I skim them or avoid,This one caught my eye because of my heritage and yes I am saddened by some of the posts,

 

[Peter_J]

Well, there is no obligation to read threads like that, I skim them or avoid

Alright, can’t argue with you there.

 

[Shirtless]

What are we to make of this, though? Are we celebrating?

I rather suspect that Pope Francis realizes, after 460 years, it may be time to recognize the reality of the situation and to work for reconciliation and understanding from that point forward.

 

[josh987654321]

I don’t have enough information to say one way or the other, but I know that unity is only found in truth.

3 John 4:4
4 No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth.

I get nervous that people are trying to look for a ‘middle ground’ some kind of a solution that will satisfy all parties (Which If they are pro same sex marriage, abortion, women ordination etc will just never happen), that’s not the way truth works, especially not Divine Revelation, which works on repentance and turning back.

Not only that, but if the Archbishop is pro same sex marriage, abortion, women ordination etc, what are the laity supposed to make of unity? do these issues matter? What is truth as Pontius Pilate said.

I’m all for dialogue and friendly/peaceful relations, but not ecumenism, it should be evangelization. As unity will only be found in truth.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Peter_J]

I rather suspect that Pope Francis realizes, after 460 years, it may be time to recognize the reality of the situation and to work for reconciliation and understanding from that point forward.

Well I would hope so. Just as I would like to think that Benedict XVI, JPII, JPI, Paul VI, and John XXIII recognized it.

 

[commenter]

I rather suspect that Pope Francis realizes, after 460 years, it may be time to recognize the reality of the situation and to work for reconciliation and understanding from that point forward.

It takes a stable partner for reconciliation. In the 1960s it was hoped the C of E, and predecessors of ELCA, would be stable. Since then, they have dropped many things their
forerunners would have regarded as permanent, and sacred. No one knows which things they currently regard as permanent and sacred might get dropped in a decade or two. They are tied to the secular culture.

In a way, we could say the RCC has “reconciled” with the C of E of 1966. But that church and TEC are essentially gone, replaced by mostly different organizations with the same names. So the “progress” from that ecumenical era is mostly null and void. It led to a dead end. It has a little benefit for Catholics or Anglicans in 2016 but not much.