Declaring a saint is in heaven for sure?

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  1. How can the Catholic church declare that anyone is in heaven for sure. They do not believe in the doctrine of eternal security and say that no one, not even the most holy person on earth, has a guarantee of salvation. That would be the Baptist church that says we believe we can be assured of salvation. So if the Catholic Church says we can hope but not presume… 2. then how is that they do exactly that when they say someone is in heaven? Although we could guess that they are in heaven unless we are actually present at the minute God judges them 3. how can we say we know for sure??
As I see it, there are three questions here. 1. How can the Catholic church declare that anyone is in heaven for sure. Because of the process involved, which has been described to you by another poster.
  1. Then how is it that they do exactly that (presume) when they say someone is in heaven? They are absolutely NOT presuming. They have established proof!
  2. How can we know for sure? Because the Church says so - do you not believe that the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit? Do you not believe Jesus’ words “The Gates of Hell will not prevail…” ? Part of the process of discernment involved in the canonization process is the need for miracles - 2 to be precise. When people ask the dead person to intercede for them with God and ask for, particularly, physical healing, if it is God’s will that we know that this person is indeed with Him in heaven, then there will be miracles. These miracles are not like the “miracles” we see on popular tv shows. There is an indepth investigation before declaring a miracle. There must be proof that the cured person was indeed suffering from an illness or condition, and it could not be cured by medical science. The miracle must be immediate, and complete. God is showing us, by these miracles, that it is His will for us to be sure that the person for whose intercession we prayed is in Heaven. Is that not enough? It is for the Church. So, when the Pope declares someone a Saint, that is an infallible declaration.
Who are we to question this?

Why does the Church go through this process and declare people saints? To encourage us, since each of us is called to be a saint. To show us our heros. So that we can know who we can pray to for help, since they are already there.

It is wonderful that we can know of so many who made it!
 
If we have been a faithful and Christ loving Catholic until our death, we CAN be assured that we will go to be with the Lord. Because to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. II Cor 5:8, Rom 8:38-39
 
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ConvertFromSBC:
How can the Catholic church declare that anyone is in heaven for sure. They do not believe in the doctrine of eternal security and say that no one, not even the most holy person on earth, has a guarantee of salvation. That would be the Baptist church that says we believe we can be assured of salvation. So if the Catholic Church says we can hope but not presume…then how is that they do exactly that when they say someone is in heaven? Although we could guess that they are in heaven unless we are actually present at the minute God judges them how can we say we know for sure??
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Because the Church, before it declares anyone a saint, thoroughly investigates the lives of anyone who is a candidate for sainthood. Only when a person’s **sanctity **has been **completely **and thoroughly proven, including miracles that have been verified to have occured as a result of petitions to the person in question, will a person be adjudged to be a saint. Thus, miracles as a result of intercession of the person is surely a sign that the said person is indeed in Heaven. The Church is indeed very meticulous and thorough in undertaking the process of canonization.

Gerry 🙂
 
Gerry
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                                    Oh boy, now according to your statement a Catholic must now be a "canonized saint" by the church before they can go to heaven? Where do you get this stuff?

                                     Ron from Ohio
 
hey convertfromsbc (by the way, so am i) - i think you have missed what they have told you. which is easy to do. i did, too. then i got it.

they’re not saying miracles DURING THE PERSON’S LIFETIME. they’re saying that a person is canonized following miracles that occur DUE TO THEIR INTERCESSION AFTER THEIR DEATH. in other words, a saint dies. then a miracle occurs that seems, to a very extensive investigation, to result from the intercession of that saint AFTER THEY HAVE DIED.

if this is the case, and the miracle occured due to their postmortem intercession, they must be in heaven, interceding.

make sense?
 
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rarndt01:
Gerry

Oh boy, now according to your statement a Catholic must now be a “canonized saint” by the church before they can go to heaven? Where do you get this stuff?

Ron from Ohio
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Hi Ron

Please kindly re-read my previous post. I did **not **say that a Catholic must be a canonized saint before they can go to heaven. All I have said is that a saint is undoubtedly in heaven precisely because of a saint’s proven character and sanctity, as well as miracles resulting from his/her intercession, which is thoroughly investigated prior to formal canonization. This is the reason why the Beatification and Canonization processes takes many years, sometimes even decades to complete, in order to get all the facts about the saint’s life. They are saints precisely because they have lived such remarkable lives, practiced Christian virtue or charity to such a high degree, and made a considerable yet positive impact upon the Church and his fellow christians.

Peace

Gerry 🙂
 
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rarndt01:
If we have been a faithful and Christ loving Catholic until our death, we CAN be assured that we will go to be with the Lord. Because to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. II Cor 5:8, Rom 8:38-39
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Just a couple of comments about the way those passages are stated

2 Corinthians 5
8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Paul is not stating a fact that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, he’s stating a preference to be there. That’s a big difference.

Romans 8
. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,1] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus

Notice Paul doesn’t mention any sins here. He didn’t say NOTHING like murder, or adultry, or stealing, etc etc would seperate us from God. If he did, that would cause a contradiction with other instructions he gave us elsewhere in scripture. He would also contradict Jesus as well. Instead, he said that no person, no places, nothing in creation, or things can seperate us from the LOVE of God. Even souls in hell are loved by God. They are seperated from God, just not from His love.
 
how are they separated from God, as He is omnipresent? (i’ve asked this elsewhere, and not gotten a very satisfying answer)
 
steveB

You are INSERTING a different meaning to Paul’s thoughts here or adding on to the word of God, which is dangerous. Paul didn’t say I WOULD rather, as if there is ANOTHER PLACE, but rather than be IN THIS LIFE, he rather be with our Lord in heaven.Read the context.

This also agrees with Paul’s words in Phillipians 1:23 where it his DESIRE to depart and BE WITH CHRIST. Paul had no other place in mind between his death and being with Jesus. You are perverting the words of the apostle Paul and you need to make penance for your sin.

Ron from Ohio
 
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jeffreedy789:
how are they separated from God, as He is omnipresent? (i’ve asked this elsewhere, and not gotten a very satisfying answer)
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The quote, so often misquoted is, "to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord". By misquoting it this way, It’s assumed one is automatically in heaven once they are absent from the body. Paul didn’t say that. He said I “would prefer” in front of the statement, and therefore the misquote is not an absolute fact but rather a preference.

As you point out, since God is omnipresent, what about God being present to those in hell when they die?. My question in reverse, Is being in hell what Paul means by “being home with the Lord”? Is it a possibility when one dies they’ll be in hell? YEP! Therefore, it is not automatic that when one dies, they’ll automatically be at home with the Lord by virtue of being absent from the body. When Paul says “home with the Lord”, he means heaven. So what seperation is talked about?

In the parable Jesus gives of the rich man and Lazarus, there is the example of two individuals absent from their bodies. Two places/existences/destinations are described as their final destinations. And their is a permenent seperation between the two people and their existence. One experiences complete happiness and one of constant pain.

Who is at “home with the Lord”? Who is seperated?
 
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rarndt01:
steveB

You are INSERTING a different meaning to Paul’s thoughts here or adding on to the word of God, which is dangerous.
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I quoted the passages exactly from scripture.
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rarndt01:
Paul didn’t say I WOULD rather, as if there is ANOTHER PLACE, but rather than be IN THIS LIFE, he rather be with our Lord in heaven.Read the context.
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Go back and read what I said. .
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rarndt01:
This also agrees with Paul’s words in Phillipians 1:23 where it his DESIRE to depart and BE WITH CHRIST. Paul had no other place in mind between his death and being with Jesus. You are perverting the words of the apostle Paul and you need to make penance for your sin.
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Go back and re read what was said.
 
The Church can not err in this matter, because otherwise she could potentially be exhorting the faithful to venerate and ask prayer requests to a person in hell. I’m a convert myself, and I wondered about this very thing, and that in a nutshell is how my priest explained it to me. The Spirit does not permitt the Church to err in such declarations, for the faithful look to the saints as examples of holiness and models of faith. We also venerate the saints and pray to them. Can those in hell pray for us? Should those in hell be venerated? No. Otherwise we could not be certain that saint x is bringing our prayers before God.
 
The business of declaring sainthood for someone was begun by Christ himself, and so we should have no compunction about following the example he set for us.

To the Good Thief he said: “This day you will be with me in paradise.”

Saint Dismas was canonized by Christ.
 
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Carl:
The business of declaring sainthood for someone was begun by Christ himself, and so we should have no compunction about following the example he set for us.

To the Good Thief he said: “This day you will be with me in paradise.”

Saint Dismas was canonized by Christ.
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I wholly agree. St. Dismas was indeed blessed that he repented of his sin and confessed his faith in the presence of our Saviour and died by His side.

St. Dismas, pray for us.

Gerry 🙂
 
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twf:
The Church can not err in this matter, because otherwise she could potentially be exhorting the faithful to venerate and ask prayer requests to a person in hell. I’m a convert myself, and I wondered about this very thing, and that in a nutshell is how my priest explained it to me. The Spirit does not permitt the Church to err in such declarations, for the faithful look to the saints as examples of holiness and models of faith. We also venerate the saints and pray to them. Can those in hell pray for us? Should those in hell be venerated? No. Otherwise we could not be certain that saint x is bringing our prayers before God.
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The remarkable lives and sanctity of the saints are enough testimony that they are indeed in heaven.

Gerry 🙂
 
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